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What is an apocalypse, really — and why do we keep reducing it to "the end of the world"? In this episode, I sit down with John J. Collins, one of the foremost scholars of ancient Judaism and Christian origins, to discuss his newest book, Apocalypticism as a Worldview in Ancient Judaism.

Collins — who literally helped write the modern definition of "apocalypse" as a genre back in the 1970s — walks us through what fifty years of scholarship (and the full publication of the Dead Sea Scrolls) have revealed about this strange, vivid literature. We talk about Daniel's statue of four kingdoms and the idea of "total history," the myth of the Watchers as an allegory for cultural upheaval, the Persian roots of Jewish dualism, the puzzle of the Son of Man in the Similitudes of Enoch, and why the "end" in apocalyptic thought is never really the end — it's always the doorway to something else: resurrection, judgment, a new creation, life with the angels.

Along the way, we get into trauma and apocalyptic literature, the messy boundary between early Judaism and Christianity, and how geopolitical pressure from Persia, Greece, and Rome shaped the way these texts imagined history and the cosmos.

Whether you know Daniel and Enoch inside and out or you're just apocalypse-curious, this is a rich, wide-ranging conversation about one of the most influential and misunderstood genres in the ancient world.

John J. Collins - Apocalypticism as a Worldview

00:00:00 – Introduction & welcome

00:01:01 – What is an apocalypse? Defining the term

00:02:14 – Building the genre definition: the 1970s SBL project

00:06:39 – How the Dead Sea Scrolls changed the field

00:07:24 – Ongoing debates: does "apocalypticism" even exist as a category?

00:07:42 – Genre in action: the case of Fourth Ezra

00:09:11 – Daniel's statue and the idea of "total history"

00:15:52 – A Persian parallel: the Zoroastrian Bahman Yasht

00:17:47 – Prophecy after the fact (Daniel 11 and vaticinium ex eventu)

00:20:06 – The end isn't the end: resurrection and the afterlife as innovation

00:22:58 – Mythic frameworks: the combat myth (Baal, Yam, and Daniel 7)

00:30:05 – The Watchers as allegory for cultural disruption

00:33:04 – Dualism, Zoroastrian influence, and the Dead Sea Scrolls

00:36:32 – The Visions of Amram and the Melchizedek/Melchiresha figures

00:38:20 – Ascending to heaven: the evolving picture of the afterlife

00:41:51 – Millenarianism and the restoration of Israel

00:43:22 – The Similitudes of Enoch, the Son of Man, and Christian transmission

00:52:06 – Q&A: Was "apocalypse" a category ancient readers recognized?

00:54:47 – Q&A: Reading Daniel through a trauma-informed lens

00:57:12 – Q&A: Thoughts on Michael Heiser's divine council/watcher work

00:59:37 – Q&A: "The time is fulfilled" — Mark, Daniel, and apocalyptic timelines

01:02:31 – The Jewish–Christian "parting of the ways" reconsidered

01:05:31 – Geopolitical fault lines: Persia, Greece, Rome, and apocalyptic literature

01:09:03 – Closing thoughts

Over the first season of Footnote Famous I interviewed 22 Bible scholars, and I read every one of their books cover to cover before we spoke. Some of what I heard confirmed things I already suspected. Five ideas genuinely changed how I read the New Testament — and I haven't been able to stop thinking about them since.In this season one roundup I walk through all five: why the "gospel communities" every seminary teaches may be an invention of 19th-century German Romanticism; why the Christmas story might originally have been about John the Baptist; why the Paul we read could be third-hand at best; why Luke looks like he was reading Josephus; and why "faith" didn't originally mean what Augustine made it mean.Featuring conversations with Dr. Robin Faith Walsh, Dr. James McGrath, Dr. Markus Vinzent, Dr. Steve Mason, and Dr. Teresa Morgan.Full interviews:Ep. 2 — Robin Faith Walsh Ep. 3 — James McGrathEp. 5 — Markus VinzentEp. 10 — Steve MasonEp. 18 — Teresa MorganBooks mentioned (Sponsored Links):- Robin Faith Walsh, The Origins of Early Christian Literature 👉 - James McGrath, John of History, Baptist of Faith (and the popular version, Christmaker) - Markus Vinzent, Resetting the Origins of Christianity and Christ's Resurrection in Early Christianity - Steve Mason, Josephus and the New Testament - Teresa Morgan, Roman Faith and Christian Faith - Paula Fredriksen, Ancient Christianities — not on the list, but everyone should read itQuestions this episode answers:Where did the idea of "gospel communities" come from?Was the nativity story originally about John the Baptist?Have Paul's letters been edited?Did Luke use Josephus as a source?What did the Greek word pistis actually mean?A reconstructed Baptist infancy

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Did the author of Luke's Gospel actually know the geography of first-century Palestine? In this interview, biblical scholar John Kloppenborg — my own PhD supervisor at the University of Toronto — breaks down the evidence that Luke's geography is full of errors, and explains what those mistakes reveal about Luke's sources. Kloppenborg identifies three levels of geographic knowledge in ancient texts: place names, relational knowledge (how places connect), and deep local knowledge. Using this framework, he shows that Luke has genuine local knowledge of sailing routes in the Aegean, only relational knowledge of the Levantine coast, and almost no accurate knowledge of the interior of Galilee and Judea — where Jesus's own ministry supposedly took place.We look at specific geographical mistakes in Luke's Gospel: Nazareth called a "polis" (city) when it was a village of a few hundred people, the feeding of the 5,000 near Bethsaida, and the confused travel narrative in Luke 9–19 where Jesus seems to be in two places at once. Kloppenborg argues this points to Luke using an ancient map — possibly a predecessor of the Tabula Peutingeriana — to reconstruct a journey through territory he had never visited.

Tabula Peutingeriana Interactive Map 🔗PDF of John's Chapter - “Luke’s Geography: Knowledge, Ignorance, Sources, and Spatial Conception.”

Skepe Community Patreon 📱 FOLLOW FOR MORE - YouTube: @cjcornthwaite - Instagram: @cjcornthwaite- Website: cjcornthwaite.com- Email: cjcornthwaite@proton.me