Zack Cooper of the American Enterprise Institute returns to the podcast to discuss the recent Trump-Xi meeting in Seoul. Who got the better deal, and is the year-long “truce” a stable one? As both sides look to use this window to de-risk, who will have more leverage over the medium term? More broadly, Trump’s Asia trip was a very important data point in helping us all understand what US foreign policy is now, how it is made, and what direction it’s going in. The answers are not satisfying and very uncertain, but it’s the most important question in international affairs today. There is no-one better than Zack to help one build a model of US foreign policy in the Trump era.

Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Hannah Nelson and theme music composed by Rory Stenning.

Relevant links

Zack Cooper, “How Trump Put China First”, Time, 7 November: https://www.aei.org/articles/how-trump-put-china-first/

Lindsey Ford and Zack Cooper, “America’s Alliances After Trump: Lessons from the Summer of ’69”, Texas National Security Review, Vol. 4, Iss. 2, Spring 2021, pp. 99-116: https://tnsr.org/2021/03/americas-alliances-after-trump-lessons-from-the-summer-of-69/

Darren Lim and Zack Cooper. (2015). “Reassessing Hedging: The Logic of Alignment in East Asia”. Security Studies, 24(4), 696–727: https://doi.org/10.1080/09636412.2015.1103130

Ezra Klein, “This Is How the Democratic Party Beats Trump”, New York Times, 2 November 2025 (video): https://www.nytimes.com/video/opinion/100000010495041/this-is-how-the-democratic-party-beats-trump.html

Vanity Fair, “How EJAE & Mark Sonnenblick Created Grammy-Nominated “Golden" From KPop Demon Hunters” (video): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxEX_GWwE7M

Joseph Torigian, “The Party’s Interests Come First: The Life of Xi Zhongxun, Father of Xi Jinping” (2025): https://josephtorigian.com/bookmanuscript/

The much-anticipated face-to-face meeting between Prime Minister Albanese and President Trump has happened, not in the Oval Office but the Cabinet Room of the White House. The PM will be very pleased with how it went, with only one major casualty – embarrassment for Australia’s US Ambassador Kevin Rudd, after past tweets critical of the president were brought up, creating some awkwardness.

To discuss the dynamics and outcomes of the meeting Darren welcomes Dr. Charles Edel to the podcast, a long overdue guest, and the best-placed individual anywhere to provide insight into these events, and the broader alliance relationship. Why was the meeting needed? While widely agreed to have gone well, what exactly made the meeting a success? What is the status of AUKUS now, and what about critical minerals? And, while he did not have a good time at the meeting, how has Kevin Rudd been an essential part of the process and key to its success?

Charles is a senior adviser and the inaugural Australia Chair at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. He previously taught at the University of Sydney, where he was also a senior fellow at the United States Studies Centre. Prior to that, Charles was a professor of strategy and policy at the U.S. Naval War College and served on the U.S. secretary of state’s Policy Planning Staff.

Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Hannah Nelson and theme music composed by Rory Stenning.

Relevant links

Charles Edel (bio): https://www.csis.org/people/charles-edel

Abraham Denmark and Charles Edel, “The AUKUS Inflection: Seizing the Opportunity to Deliver Deterrence”, CSIS Australia Chair Report, August 2025: https://www.csis.org/analysis/aukus-inflection-seizing-opportunity-deliver-deterrence

Annabel Crabbe, “When Donald Trump was ready to take his pound of flesh, Kevin Rudd was here to help”, ABC News, 21 October: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-10-21/trump-albanese-meeting-rudd-pound-of-flesh/105916336

Australian Industry Group, “Developing industry capability and partnerships for AUKUS Pillar 2”, Report, August 2025: https://www.aigroup.com.au/globalassets/news/reports/2025/ai_group_spg_report_aukus_pillar-ii.pdf

Trent Dalton, Gravity let me go, (4th estate, 2025): https://www.harpercollins.com.au/9781460713334/gravity-let-me-go/

Darren welcomes back Tim Watts MP to the podcast. Tim is now the government’s Special Envoy for Indian Ocean Affairs having also served as assistant minister for foreign affairs in the Albanese government’s first term. The discussion begins with Tim’s new role and the importance of the Indian Ocean Region to Australia’s national interests. From there, Darren asks Tim to reflect on his time as Assistant Foreign Minister and what the work he did says about Australian foreign policy more broadly. What are the inputs to success? The conversation finishes with the vital (and ongoing) challenge of Asian capability.

Australia in the World is written, hosted, and produced by Darren Lim, with research and editing this episode by Hannah Nelson and theme music composed by Rory Stenning.

Relevant links

Peter Dean and Alice Nason, An Australian Indian Ocean agenda to 2035, United States Studies Centre Report, September 2025: https://www.ussc.edu.au/an-australian-indian-ocean-agenda-to-2035

Allan Gyngell, “White-papering Australian foreign policy”, East Asia Forum, 22 May 2017: https://eastasiaforum.org/2017/05/22/white-papering-australian-foreign-policy/

Tim Watts, “Complacent nation: Australia and the Asian Century”, Lowy Interpreter, 22 September 2025: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/the-interpreter/complacent-nation-australia-asian-century

Joya Chatterji, Shadows at Noon: The South Asian Twentieth Century (Vintage, 2024): https://www.penguin.com.au/books/shadows-at-noon-9781529925555

David Van Reybrouck, Revolusi: Indonesia and the Birth of the Modern World (Vintage, 2025): https://www.penguin.com.au/books/revolusi-9781529931525

Stephen Dziedzic and Yiying Li, “BHP vs China Inc: What the iron ore dispute says about Australia's present and future”, ABC News, 17 October: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-10-17/what-bhp-china-iron-ore-dispute-means-to-australia/105901692