Welcome to Exponential View, the show where I explore how exponential technologies such as AI are reshaping our future. I've been studying AI and exponential technologies at the frontier for over ten years.

Each week, I share some of my analysis or speak with an expert guest to make light of a particular topic.

To keep up with the Exponential transition, subscribe to this channel or to my newsletter: https://www.exponentialview.co/
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In this episode, I sit down with my friend Rohit Krishnan - writer of the Substack newsletter Strange Loop Canon - for a hands-on conversation about what it actually looks like to build with AI agents today. Between us we're burning through tens of billions of tokens a month - I hit nearly 100 million in a single day this week - and we share what we're each running on our own machines.

We dig into the quirks and surprising power of tools like OpenClaw, Claude Code, and Cowork, debate why AI remains stubbornly bad at good writing, and zoom out to ask what a world of trillions of agents might actually look like — and what economic infrastructure it will need.

We covered:

(03:15) What's on your screen right now?

(04:30) OpenClaw

(06:27) Rohit’s agent, Morpheus

(11:06) Azeem's agent, R. Mini Arnold

(19:25) The analyst is now a machine

(22:36) 100 million tokens in a day: the new normal

(24:44) Building tools to improve AI writing: Horace and Broca

(32:19) Why writing is the hardest eval for LLMs

(39:18) Towards a trillion agents

(42:09) The agentic economy: coordination, identity, and exchange

(46:33) How to get started with OpenClaw

(51:18) The hardest leap for new users

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Where to find me:

Exponential View newsletter: https://www.exponentialview.co/

Website: https://www.azeemazhar.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/azhar/

Twitter/X: https://x.com/azeem

Production by EPIIPLUS1

Production and research: Baba Films, Chantal Smith, Marija Gavrilov.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome to Exponential View, the show where I explore how exponential technologies such as AI are reshaping our future. I've been studying AI and exponential technologies at the frontier for over ten years. Each week, I share some of my analysis or speak with an expert guest to make light of a particular topic.

To keep up with the Exponential transition, subscribe to this channel or to my newsletter: https://www.exponentialview.co/

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In this episode, I'm joined by Jaime Sevilla, founder of Epoch AI; Hannah Petrovic from my team at Exponential View; and financial journalist Matt Robinson from AI Street. Together we investigate a fundamental question: do the economics of AI companies actually work?

We analysed OpenAI's financials from public data to examine whether their revenues can sustain the staggering R&D costs of frontier models.

The findings reveal a picture far more precarious than many assume; we also explore where the real infrastructure bottlenecks lie, why compute demand will dwarf energy constraints, and what the rise of long-running agentic workloads means for the entire industry.

Read the study here: https://www.exponentialview.co/p/inside-openais-unit-economics-epoch-exponentialview

We covered:

(00:00) Do the economics of frontier AI actually work?

(02:48) Piecing together OpenAI's finances from public data

(05:24) GPT-5's "rapidly depreciating asset" problem

(13:25) Why OpenAI is flirting with ads

(17:31) If you were Sam Altman, what would you do differently?

(22:54) Energy vs. GPUs; where the real infrastructure bottleneck lies

(29:15) What surging compute demand actually looks like

(33:12) The most surprising finding from the research

(38:02) The race to avoid commoditization

(43:35) Agents that outlive their models

Where to find me:

Exponential View newsletter: https://www.exponentialview.co/

Website: https://www.azeemazhar.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/azhar/

Twitter/X: https://x.com/azeem

Where to find Jamie: https://epoch.ai or https://epochai.substack.com

Where to find Matt: https://www.ai-street.co

Production by supermix.io and EPIIPLUS1 Production and research: Chantal Smith and Marija Gavrilov.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome to Exponential View, the show where I explore how exponential technologies such as AI are reshaping our future. I've been studying AI and exponential technologies at the frontier for over ten years.

Each week, I share some of my analysis or speak with an expert guest to make light of a particular topic.

To keep up with the Exponential transition, subscribe to this channel or to my newsletter: https://www.exponentialview.co/

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A week before OpenClaw exploded, I recorded a prescient conversation with Mustafa Suleyman, CEO of Microsoft AI and co-founder of DeepMind. We talked about what happens when AI starts to seem conscious – even if it isn’t. Today, you get to hear our conversation.

Mustafa has been sounding the alarm about what he calls “seemingly conscious AI” and the risk of collective AI psychosis for a long time. We discussed this idea of the “fourth class of being” – neither human, tool, nor nature – that AI is becoming and all it brings with it.

Skip to the best bits:

(03:38) Why consciousness means the ability to suffer

(06:52) "Your empathy circuits are being hacked"

(07:23) Consciousness as the basis of rights

(10:47) A fourth class of being

(13:41) Why market forces push toward seemingly conscious AI

(20:56) What AI should never be allowed to say

(25:06) The proliferation problem with open-source chatbots

(29:09) Why we need well-paid civil servants

(30:17) Where should we draw the line with AI?

(37:48) The counterintuitive case for going faster

(42:00) The vibe coding dopamine hit

(47:09) Social intelligence as the next AI frontier

(48:50) The case for humanist super intelligence

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Where to find Mustafa:

- X (Twitter): https://x.com/mustafasuleyman

- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mustafa-suleyman/

- Personal Website: https://mustafa-suleyman.ai/

Where to find me:

- Substack: https://www.exponentialview.co/

- Website: https://www.azeemazhar.com/

- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/azhar

- Twitter/X: https://x.com/azeem

Produced by supermix.io and EPIIPLUS1 Ltd. Production and research: Chantal Smith and Marija Gavrilov.

Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.