Doug and co-host Daniel Goulding sit down with Andy Cook, Executive Director of the Wheaton College Billy Graham Center, to unpack why relational evangelism belongs at the center of discipleship. Together they explore sobering stats (60% of U.S. churches are stagnant or declining), Gen Z’s surprising openness to spiritual conversations, and the practical rhythms leaders can model—from Alpha tables to breakfast-booth friendships.

Daniel shares church-plant lessons around decisions and baptisms, while Andy unpacks BGC research, revitalization cohorts, and the vision behind the Amplify Conference. Along the way, they wrestle with transfer growth vs. true conversion, the seeker-sensitive debate, preaching clearly into cultural issues, and how “radical alignment” mobilizes everyday believers. The conversation is actionable, hopeful, and data-informed.

New to Intentional Churches? Start here:
https://intentionalchurches.com/radical-alignment

CHAPTERS:
00:00 The Sobering Statistic: 60% of Churches in Decline or Stagnant
01:03 Meet Co-Host Daniel Goulding and His Church Plant Story
01:21 Andy Cook’s Journey: From Willow Creek to Wheaton College
03:28 Daniel’s Radical Conversion: From Fraternity Life to Faith
06:43 Early Lessons in Relational Evangelism
08:03 Inviting Friends, Broken Hearts, and the “Lonely Bench” at Willow
10:33 Why Evangelism Must Begin with Leaders
13:32 Everyday Evangelism: Breakfast Tables and Baptism Stories
15:02 Making Evangelism a Regular Appointment on the Calendar
16:56 Why Andy Leads Alpha and Steps Outside the Christian Bubble
17:13 Inside the Billy Graham Center and Its Institutes
20:30 State of Evangelism in America Today
23:15 Transfer Growth vs. True Kingdom Growth
24:48 Why Evangelism Feels Scary—and Why It’s Still Biblical
26:20 Bad Evangelism vs. Good Evangelism: Learning Like Toddlers
28:56 Discipleship and Evangelism: Two Sides of the Same Coin
30:40 Can You Have Deep Discipleship Without Evangelism?

32:23 Gen Z’s Spiritual Openness and New Research Insights
34:46 Preaching Boldly into Cultural Issues
36:58 Calling Men to Biblical Masculinity
37:50 Convening Evangelism Leaders at the Billy Graham Center
39:18 Digital Spaces, AI, and the Future of Evangelism
40:18 The Amplify Conference: Keeping Evangelism Central
40:56 The Radical Alignment Assessment and New Data

Website: https://intentionalchurches.com
The Book: https://a.co/d/hFlz17C
The Blog: https://intentionalchurches.com/blog/
YouTube: www.youtube.com/@IntentionalChurches
Facebook: https://facebook.com/intentionalchurches
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/intentional-churches/mycompany/
Instagram: https://instagram.com/IntentionalChurches
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Join the conversation and let us know how you are leading your church toward the Great Commission!

David Ashcraft joins Doug and co-host Daniel Goulding on this episode of the Intentional Churches Podcast, sharing lessons from decades of leadership at LCBC in Pennsylvania.

From painful early years where elders walked out, to the explosive growth that brought thousands of people across multiple campuses, David unpacks how radical alignment and a relentless focus on “best vs. good” shaped a disciple-making movement.

During their conversation, you’ll hear why alignment matters more than keeping everyone happy, how LCBC codified its culture without losing passion, and what the 90–10 rule teaches us about the need for some people to be upset if you’re truly moving forward. David also unpacks how to discern between “good” opportunities and the “best” mission, and he shares honestly about the personal cost leaders pay to remain faithful through seasons of growth.

New to Intentional Churches? Start here:
https://intentionalchurches.com/radical-alignment

CHAPTERS:
00:00 When Elders Walk Out: The Pain of Early Leadership
01:10 Meet Co-Host Daniel Goulding and His Church Plant Story
02:44 David Ashcraft’s Journey: From Texas to Pennsylvania
04:48 Facing Opposition: Letters from Abe and the Worship Wars
07:11 LCBC’s Growth: From 150 to 25,000 Across 25 Campuses
08:23 The Core Issue: Alignment vs. Misalignment in the Church
09:40 Good vs. Best: The Principle that Guides Every Decision
11:19 Lessons from Rapid Growth and Staff Alignment Challenges
14:00 Codifying Culture: From Intuition to Intentionality
16:33 Multi-Site Expansion and Why Limitations Became Opportunities
18:52 Stewardship, Buildings, and Keeping the Mission Central
22:12 Guarding Staff Culture While Scaling Fast
25:56 The 90–10 Rule: Leading with Clarity, Not Popularity
29:20 Picking Battles Carefully Without Losing Alignment
33:52 Codifying the “Gut”: Axioms and Culture Statements
39:02 Encouragement for Leaders in Shrinking or Struggling Churches
43:25 The Real Cost of Growth and Leadership Pain
45:25 Why David Stepped Into The Advantage and Global Leadership Network
47:17 Final Wisdom: Lead, Don’t Chase Popularity

Website: https://intentionalchurches.com
The Book: https://a.co/d/hFlz17C
The Blog: https://intentionalchurches.com/blog/
YouTube: www.youtube.com/@IntentionalChurches
Facebook: https://facebook.com/intentionalchurches
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/intentional-churches/mycompany/
Instagram: https://instagram.com/IntentionalChurches
X/Twitter: https://x.com/intentchurches

Join the conversation and let us know how you are leading your church toward the Great Commission!

Pastor Ben Ellefritz joins Doug for today’s episode of The Intentional Churches podcast, exploring what church growth, rural revitalization, and alignment around disciple making look like in real life. As Executive Pastor at The Crossing Church, Ben leads in a context where no town has more than 80,000 people—and some have as few as 125. Despite this, The Crossing is thriving across 12 campuses, reaching thousands each weekend.

During their conversation, you'll hear how their church realigned its multi-site strategy after discovering their previous launch model lacked commitment and sustainability. Their 12th campus launch—built entirely on pre-launch engagement, giving, and disciple-making—became their first financially self-sustaining plant from day one.

Ben also unpacks the intentional language around “Difference Makers” (not volunteers), their high expectations for both staff and lay leaders, and how they use visible scoreboards and discipleship pathways to drive alignment around the Great Commission. This conversation is a must-listen for church leaders in rural, suburban, or multi-site contexts who want to strengthen alignment, empower their people, and move from programming to pastoring.

New to Intentional Churches? Start here:
https://intentionalchurches.com/radical-alignment

CHAPTERS:
00:00 Redefining Church Strategy in a Shifting Culture
01:45 Meet Ben Ellefritz and The Crossing Church
04:07 From Principal to Pastor: Leadership Lessons
07:35 Revitalizing Rural Churches through Campus Acquisition
09:59 Why They Changed Their Church Planting Strategy
12:53 Defining “Difference Makers” Instead of Volunteers
14:52 Staff Gaps and the Future of Lay Leadership
16:11 Rebuilding Disciple Making from Baptism to Maturity
19:51 Using Scoreboards and Systems to Align Staff
22:03 Training Staff to Pastor, Not Just Program
23:54 What Hasn’t Worked: Lessons from Failure

Website: https://intentionalchurches.com
The Book: https://a.co/d/hFlz17C
The Blog: https://intentionalchurches.com/blog/
YouTube: www.youtube.com/@IntentionalChurches
Facebook: https://facebook.com/intentionalchurches
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/intentional-churches/mycompany/
Instagram: https://instagram.com/IntentionalChurches
X/Twitter: https://x.com/intentchurches

Join the conversation and let us know how you are leading your church toward the Great Commission!