Reverend Zach joins TJ and David to share his unexpected journey from being in a same-sex marriage (Side A) to embracing a historic Christian sexual ethic (Side B). Raised Roman Catholic and shaped by a call to ministry, Zachary opens up about the questions that surfaced during his seminary studies, the marriage he entered before fully understanding what kind of connection he truly longed for, and how his view of friendship, marriage, and vocation has changed over time.

He reflects on the questions that surfaced during seminary, how getting married changed his understanding of marriage, his longing for friendship, and the theologians and writers who shaped his thinking.

We appreciate Rev. Zach’s honesty, insight, and experience with navigating life and ministry as a Side B priest in a largely Side A denomination.

—What’s happened since? Come back on 12/11 for a bonus follow-up episode from Zach since this episode: https://open.substack.com/pub/newkinship/p/bonus-catching-up-with-zach-6-months

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Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

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★ About Our Guest

Rev. Zach ministers to the people of Long Island, NY and recently wrapped up his chaplaincy residency at Stony Brook University Hospital. You’ll most likely find him deep in a Jacques Ellul book or rooting for his favorite team, the Detroit Tigers. You can contact him on Instagram: @zach_enthusiastic

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) #73 - Theologies of Marriage and Friendship: Rev. Zach’s Story from Side A to Side B

(02:10) How old are you? And other awkward life questions

(17:53) A call to the priesthood

(27:13) “Have you heard of Wesley Hill?” (and many others)

(35:12) William Stringfellow had a big impact

(41:44) Becoming Side B, engaging Side A

(48:47) Was the breakup more relational or theological?

(55:27) It’s about the covenantal nature of God

(59:58) Does your Episcopalian church know you’re side B?

(01:05:01) Why stay in a “big tent” church?

(01:08:03) Beyond Side A: What does a marriage covenant mean?

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support!

Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship

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★ Credits

Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★

Dear listeners, join me on a special story with my neighbor Martina. She has fled to the US as an asylum-seeker in fear of her life from persecution and murderous extortion. Since then, she’s become not only a friend, but a partner in neighborhood hospitality and church community!

Her ability to stay here is literally a matter of life and death.

Some friends and I are working to raise funds for her asylum case in immigration court so she can live and work here in the US (and in my neighborhood!). Please consider what you could contribute to support her case.

https://givebutter.com/case4martina

* Martina has raised $2500 to start legal representation

* She needs to go from $2500 to $3500 by December 15th

* Then further she needs to at least raise $3500 to $5000 by February 15th.

Sincerely,

David

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) Introduction to Martina’s Story

(04:15) Martina’s Life in Ecuador

(05:31) Martina’s Entrepreneurial Journey

(12:21) Facing Extortion and Corruption

(21:18) Fleeing to the United States

(22:24) Life in the United States

(25:04) Finding Hope and Community

(34:08) Reflections and Future Hopes

Dr. Julia Sadusky, a Catholic and licensed psychologist from Colorado, joins David and TJ to unpack the Chiles vs. Salazar Supreme Court case and what’s behind the debates around conversion therapy. Julia talks about how she brings together her faith and psychology, and why—as a conservative Christian—she chose to support Colorado’s ban on “conversion therapy” for minors, through an amicus brief.

We are grateful for the nuance and clarity Julia offers in this (often heated and stressful) conflict in the courts and in our church circles, and we invite you to take that same posture of openness and care, as you listen.

★ About Our Guest

Dr. Julia Sadusky is a licensed clinical psychologist and the owner of a private practice in Littleton, CO. She is also an author, consultant, speaker, and adjunct professor. Dr. Sadusky has done extensive research and clinical work in sexual and gender development and specializes in trauma-informed care. She earned a bachelor’s degree from Ave Maria University and a master’s degree and doctorate in Clinical Psychology from Regent University. She has authored several books around human sexuality, with her most recent two-book series entitled, “Start Talking to Your Kids about Sex: A Practical Guide for Catholics” (Ave Maria Press, 2023) and “Talking with Your Teen about Sex: A Practical Guide for Catholics” (Ave Maria Press, 2024). You can find her at juliasadusky.com.

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Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A,” “Side B,” and “Side X” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to that conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠

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★ Timestamps

(00:00) Quick intro, Side A, Side B, Side X

(02:58) Introducing Julia: Now you know a psychologist from Delaware

(06:17) How (can) psychology and Christian faith go together

(08:17) What is conversion therapy?

(12:33) Conversion therapy success rates? Digging into Joseph Nicolosi’s research

(22:47) What about “reintegrative therapy”? Measuring “change in attraction”

(25:59) History of changing diagnoses, reports on conversion therapy

(29:21) OK, so, the current case: Chiles vs. Salazar

(40:40) Is this more about conversion therapy? or religious freedom? Is therapy “speech”?

(45:58) How do contemporary trans politics overlap (or hype) this case?

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★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support || Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship

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★ Credits || Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★