On this episode of Some Things Considered, I spoke with Walt Hunter — senior associate dean at Case Western Reserve University, professor of 20th- and 21st-century literature, poetry editor at The Atlantic, and author of the poetry collection Some Flowers.

The conversation began with the Atlantic essay that prompted the invitation: "Stop Meeting Students Where They Are."

It's a provocative title — but the thesis is bracing rather than punitive. Hunter argues that in an era defined by devices, distraction, AI, and cultural impatience, educators must resist the impulse to lower expectations in the name of accessibility. Instead of asking what students already consume, he asks what they might rise to.

Sometimes "meeting students where they are" really means: don't risk difficulty. Don't demand depth. Don't make anyone uncomfortable.

We're living in a moment of ambient anti-intellectualism — where if something doesn't monetize, scale, or optimize, it's treated as ornamental. The arts are expected to justify themselves in ways business or athletics never are.

Walt's pushback is simple but disruptive:

Raise the bar.

Don't assume students can't handle complexity. Don't pre-digest poetry because you're afraid they won't "get it." Don't panic about AI before reconsidering whether your assignments are worth doing.

If a student doesn't understand calculus on the first day, we don't scrap calculus. We teach it.

Why do we treat poetry differently?

The deeper issue isn't devices. It's belief.

Belief that difficulty is formative.
Belief that rigor is respect.
Belief that students can rise.

Poetry, Walt argues, is an analog act in a culture obsessed with optimization. It tracks what matters — not to improve our efficiency, but to deepen our humanity.

Walt Hunter is senior associate dean for the College of Arts and Sciences and a professor of 20th- and 21st-century literature in the department of English at Case Western Reserve University. Hunter is fiction and poetry editor for The Atlantic. In addition to two books of literary criticism, Hunter is also the author of a collection of poetry, Some Flowers.

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/althunter/?hl=en

Website: https://walthunter.com/

Award-winning author Sean Murphy in conversation with creative thinkers, spanning the literary, music, art, politics, and tech industries. As a cultural critic, professor, founder of a literary non-profit, Sean is always looking to explore and celebrate the ways Story is integral to how we define ourselves, as artists and human beings. This Substack newsletter and weekly podcast peels back the layers of how creativity works, why it matters, how our most brilliant minds achieve mastery. Join us to explore how our most successful and inspired storytellers engage by discussing craft, routines, brand, and mostly through authentic and honest expression.

Website: seanmurphy.net
Substack: seanmurphy.live
X: @bullmurph
Instagram: @bullmurph
Facebook: facebook.com/AuthorSeanMurphy
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/sean-murphy-4986b41

In this episode of Some Things Considered, the conversation centers on icon, actor, performer, and now memoirist Gina Gershon — a career artist whose new book, Alpha Pussy, reflects on four decades in the entertainment industry and the life that shaped it.

Rather than a conventional Hollywood tell-all, this book reveals something deeper: Gershon's career has been defined as much by what she refused as by what she accepted.

Key points in this conversation:

• Autonomy is not rebellion for its own sake — it's maintenance of self.

• Longevity in creative fields requires boundaries.

• Not every opportunity is worth taking.

• Interesting people seek interesting environments.

• Aging can amplify spirit rather than diminish it.

• Storytelling is strongest when it's honest without being exploitative.

Gina's career has been defined as much by the roles she didn't take as the ones she did. That takes a particular kind of clarity — and a tolerance for risk. The industry rewards proximity to power. She prioritized proximity to self.

We talked about artists who seem allergic to the path of least resistance — the Neil Youngs and Joni Mitchells of the world — creatives who would rather stay interesting than stay comfortable. Gina has that energy. Rebel and Girl Next Door. Old soul and downtown kid.

Her early life reads almost like a lost film reel — youth, freedom, ambition, experimentation — but what carries through is balance. Fierce independence without bitterness. Humor without self-betrayal.

And perhaps most refreshing: she doesn't weaponize her stories. The memoir could have leaned into scandal. It doesn't. She was too busy building a life to curate outrage.

That feels radical right now.

In an era when oversharing is currency and access is everything, autonomy still matters.

The artists who last aren't the loudest.

They're the ones who know exactly where to draw the line.

Gina has been starring on stage, screen, and television for over 40 years, known for her work in Cocktail, The Player, Showgirls, and the beloved sitcom Curb Your Enthusiasm. She has recorded albums and toured, including performing at Carnegie Hall. She is now a published author with a must-read memoir Alpha Pussy: How I Survived the Valley and Learned to Love my Boobs.

Instagram: ginagershon

Award-winning author Sean Murphy in conversation with creative thinkers, spanning the literary, music, art, politics, and tech industries. As a cultural critic, professor, founder of a literary non-profit, Sean is always looking to explore and celebrate the ways Story is integral to how we define ourselves, as artists and human beings. This Substack newsletter and weekly podcast peels back the layers of how creativity works, why it matters, how our most brilliant minds achieve mastery. Join us to explore how our most successful and inspired storytellers engage by discussing craft, routines, brand, and mostly through authentic and honest expression.

Website: seanmurphy.net
Substack: seanmurphy.live
X: @bullmurph
Instagram: @bullmurph
Facebook: facebook.com/AuthorSeanMurphy
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/sean-murphy-4986b41

On this week's episode, I had a wide-ranging, bracing conversation with Stephen Marche on Some Things Considered—a writer I've admired since his Esquire days, and one whose work feels more urgent by the year.

We focused on two recent books that feel both timely and enduring: The Next Civil War and On Writing and Failure.

A few key threads from our conversation:

• The Next Civil War now reads less like prophecy and more like reportage. What once felt foreboding increasingly feels like documentation.

• What's changed in America isn't belief so much as amplification—fear and grievance supercharged by media, money, and political incentives.

• Narrative matters more than facts. The stories a society accepts eventually become its reality.

• Incoherence is not a weakness of extremist movements—it's often part of the appeal. Hidden knowledge and insider logic create devotion.

• Trump wasn't an aberration so much as an apotheosis of forces long ignored.

• Liberals and progressives continue to underestimate the power of story—and often lose not on policy, but on narrative.

• On Writing and Failure is essential reading for writers: unsentimental, clarifying, and strangely encouraging.

• All writers fail. Most writers struggle. The only variable that matters is perseverance.

• "No whining" isn't cruelty—it's honesty.

• We're all writing in the aftermath of an industry that no longer exists, and pretending otherwise only leads to confusion and resentment.

• Essays expire quickly; great stories and poems lodge themselves somewhere deeper and stay.

Stephen doesn't offer comfort. He offers clarity. Right now, that feels like a necessary gift.

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/marche.stephen/

Twitter: https://x.com/StephenMarche

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephen-marche-677b50145/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/stephen.marche

Website: https://www.stephenmarche.com/

Award-winning author Sean Murphy in conversation with creative thinkers, spanning the literary, music, art, politics, and tech industries. As a cultural critic, professor, founder of a literary non-profit, Sean is always looking to explore and celebrate the ways Story is integral to how we define ourselves, as artists and human beings. This Substack newsletter and weekly podcast peels back the layers of how creativity works, why it matters, how our most brilliant minds achieve mastery. Join us to explore how our most successful and inspired storytellers engage by discussing craft, routines, brand, and mostly through authentic and honest expression.

Website: seanmurphy.net
Substack: seanmurphy.live
X: @bullmurph
Instagram: @bullmurph
Facebook: facebook.com/AuthorSeanMurphy
LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/sean-murphy-4986b41