• Spent time in Sweden, Iran and Turkey, where he bought a Kanun in Istanbul and used to practice 10 hours a day in Stockholm, in part due to his situation as an immigrant
• In Iran, the santur was more common, and it was interesting to try an instrument that wasn't as prominent in the kanun, and his father made instruments (tar, santur and several others)
• Interacted with various Middle Eastern and Eastern European ethnic groups in Sweden, and used his playing of the kanun to mix all these styles together
• Found it fascinating to blend Persian, Kurdish and Turkish styles, and is close with Taksim Trio, which have performed on his recordings
• Shakouri has recorded 120+ albums as a producer/arranger
• Various kanun samples by Shakouri on the podcast, where he demonstrates his style
• His origins are in northern Iran, near the Caspian Sea, but has traveled all over the world
• Varies the different quarter tone possibilities for creative optionality, mixing and matching modes
• He plays with all his fingers on both hands, not with picks
• Traveled to South America with his University studies, and was exposed to a lot of different musical influences to incorporate into his playing, including flamenco
• Works with top singers throughout the Middle East for both recordings and performances, including top Lebanese artists like George Wasouf, George Arasy, Hany Shaker from Egypt, Angham from Egypt, Hata Muraghi and Habib Ali from Iraq, Koza Masayer, Ibrahim Tatlises, Emra with Jaylan, Emalsayin, Moraham Ahmati from Albania, Pandoura from Macedonia, Hamza from Macedonia, Spiros Kotis from Greece, Moeen (for nearly 20 years) and Googoosh from Iran, Mahashti, Khaliji, Nabil Shahil, and scores of others, including with jazz and fusion artists
• The concept of music as teamwork for Shakouri, and gaining experience by working with others, for example listening to different forms of improvisation
• Shakouri's first instrument was Zarb/Toumbek to learn tempo and rhythm, Percussion instruments from Iran to learn time, and he studied at his father's music school - his second instrument was the tar
• Instruments were forbidden for a time during his childhood during Khomeini's time, and his father's factory made instruments and had influence over this controversial dynamic
• At the age of 8 years old, he performed in front of a crowd over 2000 people
• Shakouri's brother is also a music producer, but more traditional Persian style influences
• Spent time with Ustad Shahid Parvis one of the most revered Sitar players
• For compositions and arrangement, he engages artists and singers to see how they approach their music
• Shakouri's signature is writing for string sections, with a Turkish string section, because they play all styles well
• Discusses how many Arab and Turkish music scales are originally from Persian, Armenian or Azeri culture
• Discussion of how instruments may move from region to region and different cultures may adopt and even improve the playing of these instruments beyond the original versions and styles
• Works with William Ross at Capital Studios and Persian artist Moeen, providing middle eastern style music for movie soundtrack projects and pop song recordings, incorporating kanun and also Turkish strings
• Has shared his arrangements with Ibrahim Tatlises, with a compliment that Oylesef, that Shakouri's arrangement was more impressive than the original
• Advice for new players is to listen to different kinds of music and various styles from all over the world to learn something, with an example of how Indian glissando vocals and sitar concepts helped him develop his style

Violinist, Educator, Producer & Writer Dr. Nune Melik joins the podcast. As a soloist she has performed at Carnegie Hall and founded the Hidden Treasure International, which comprises research, performance, and lectures of rarely heard music. Recently she received her doctorate from McGill University, defending her thesis on Arno Babajanian.

Topics Include:

• Melik was born and raised in Russia (Siberia) to an Armenian family
• Her sister Karine started with piano lessons, and Nune would tag along so she was exposed to music at an early age with her own piano instruction started at age 4 in the city of Ghazan
• Learned to speak Tartar and learned about the Tartar culture, and started learning violin at around 6 years old, all of which influenced her upbringing
• Her father played several instruments and played Armenian songs in the house
• Melik moved to Canada at 19 years old to further her music and academic studies, steeped in Russian and European classical music at first, then branched out a bit more into her own culture's music and the diverse array of cultures she had been exposed to over time
• At first, she wasn't interested in Armenian music or language, but then in her mid 20s her interests matured with her work performing the songs of Arno Babajanian
• The Hidden Treasure project began in around 2010, with the organizing of Armenian themed concerts and also the music of other countries
• Continued pursuit of her studies with a doctorate program in Canada, with research on Armenian music and specifically Arno Babajanian
• Her dissertation explored the lack of information available about Babajanian, and this was an emotionally draining effort to work on documenting his legacy with precision and credibility
• She worked with his son Ara Babajanian and their foundation to confirm and obtain the accuracy of various pieces of information for her research
• Many of the biggest hits during the Soviet era consisted of works by Babajanian, who was even known by songwriters working with Elvis Presley, and how Babajanian was introduced in Quebec to the French Canadian community
• A discussion of classical music training with some limitations in instruction since improvisation is not encouraged
• Worked on a fusion Arab-Israeli project with a Lebanese composer
• Her thoughts that in the classical world, her experimentation would be viewed as a negative, but she continued to push the envelope, and even spent time studying Eminem's lyrics and in Detroit
• Working on a new album, without any Armenian or Georgian influence, which will be international music that is yet undiscovered by most - Melik is at the cutting edge of fusion of classical and experimental styles
• Melik feels liberated with her doctorate degree to go out and do more in music, and plans to dedicate time and effort to improvisation and even exploring jazz
• How Melik feels that classical music can become too technical, and may lead to a lack of enjoyment by the instrumentalist
• Melik's work with Jimmy Buffet, and performing with him for his last song in his concert with a solo, which was an informative improvisational experience
• Melik is currently working to help the Babajanian Foundation obtain non-profit status in North America, to encourage and honor women in music historically, and wants to publish the first biography of Arno Babajanian in English
• Melik also continues her work with studying improvisation and maintains a busy performance schedule

Danny Shamoun, a Los-Angeles based multi-instrumentalist originally hailing from Detroit, discusses how he started with Middle Eastern Music and transitioned to performing with System of a Down (SOAD), joining Scars of Broadway as a keyboardist, learning the Arabian Ney Flute and the impact of music theory and Makam modal based music.

Topics include:

• Discussion of how Shamoun's interest in music blossomed early, from the very young age of 3 with listening and watching to an Ibraham Tatlises video
• Shamoun's youth in Detroit featured exposure to various ethnic groups like Chaldeans, Lebanese, Syrians, etc., and his parents frequently attended Arabic music banquets as opposed to rock concerts like what he saw others doing around him
• Shamoun was impacted by seeing musicians and their lifestyle and that influenced his interest in music, and he also noticed a little bit of "funk" from the music scene which piqued his interest
• At a local community festival, Shamoun was goaded into playing the dumbek on stage with the Levendes, a prominent Greek ensemble based out of the Detroit area, and he started to take note of the various time signatures and began learning about Greek music and prominent Greek singers
• Over time, Shamoun took his practicing quite seriously, and began studying with Johnny Seduwet to learn music theory which prepared him very well for the rest of his musical career
• Shamoun later traveled from Detroit to California and became involved in the music scene through an introduction to hard rock band One Side Zero, where he was able to meet and work with Ray Mayorga and was also introduced to John Dolmayan from System of a Down, and other bands such as Viza and The Apex Theory, and even a brush with Metallica
• Shamoun was invited to perform with System of a Down on stage to do a dumbek solo during various shows, which was a very inspirational to him as an aspiring musician, which led to his relationship with System guitarist Daron Malakian and his eventual work with Malakian's side project Scars on Broadway
• Shamoun began working with System with PA work and Malakian's guitar pedal controls during System concerts, which really helped him learn about production and sound, and became good friends with Mike Bordin from Faith No More as they all toured together
• Shamoun then began work with Scars on Broadway, and expanded from dumbek and percussion to keyboard playing to round out the band's sound
• Shamoun came full circle from his music theory training with Seduwet as a youth and applied his knowledge on the keyboard, including his makam training which he could play on his Yamaha PSR 62 (which can play quarter tones), and then began taking piano lessons at the suggestion of Malakian and studied with Howard Richmond in Los Angeles which improved his playing
• Shamoun really focused on practicing and studying and preparing for Scars recordings and tours
• Discussion of Shamoun as a unique musician with his background and involvement in both middle eastern music and rock music
• Shamoun then turned his attention to the Ney (Middle Eastern flute), which expanded his musical horizons dramatically and Shamoun recorded Ney on Viza's Aria record
• Ali Jihad Rasy at UCLA took Shamoun under his wing where Shamoun was able to key in on his Ney playing and also Shamoun started scoring films, in particular for a movie named "The Queen of the Desert" with such actors as Nicole Kidman, Daniel Day Lewis and James Franco
• Shamoun recently released an original song and music video where his percussion and Ney work are featured in "Seaside Sultress", part of his ambient music projects for film scoring
• Shamoun's group "The Global Trance Ensemble" is on various social media platforms
• Shamoun also worked at a studio in Detroit where he ran in to master kanunist Ara Topouzian which involved so much experience learning about studio life and techniques which had an enormous impact on his musical development
• Discussion of the uniqueness of the Ney with a double reed sound and embouchure technique which is exceedingly difficult to make a tone on the Ney, and the similarities in spirit of the "fresh water" instruments made of wood such as the oud
• Podcast listeners can enjoy the end of the podcast which features Shamoun's track "Seaside Sultress"

Aram interviews Hachig Kazarian from Detroit, whose clarinet defines the Armenian-American clarinet sound which shaped the musical experiences of entire generations of Diaspora Armenians living in the United States for much of the 20th century. Having attended the famed Juilliard School of Music in the 60's, Kazarian was a key member of the widely acclaimed "Kef Time bands". Kazarian's music fuses Middle Eastern melody and rhythm with a Big Band sound, defined by his virtuosic improvisation and command of the clarinet – and is particularly notable for his ability to mind meld with many oud masters of his time.

Topics include:

• Kazarian's introduction to Middle Eastern clarinet music through Zurnaji Haig in Detroit, Michigan, and the traditional village dances that actually had lyrics to them and how he learned each region's songs for different crowds that would hire him to perform.
• Discussion of the lack of awareness of the origin of many of these songs.
• Kazarian learned exclusively Armenian songs at first, but then broadened to various styles of Middle Eastern music such as Turkish and Greek music over time by ear and through schooling.
• As a youngster, Kazarian was an outlier in terms of the ages of musicians that performed in his style.
• Kozani Bar and the Lafayette Bar were mainstays of the Greektown music scene where Kazarian networked, performed with and listened to performers. Aside from Jimmy Nazaretian and a Bulgarian santur player, the musicians were exclusively Greek.
• Discussion of the Armenian custom and practice of learning, mastering and being interested in music of other cultures.
• Kazarian then dedicated his time to classical music and studied this motif at the prestigious prep school for performing arts – Cass Tech (Diana Ross and other Temptations members were students that were Kazarian's peers at Cass Tech). Kazarian credits much of his early learning and improvement to his time at Cass Tech.
• Discussion of early use of quarter tones and lack of knowledge on the topic.
• Lack of musical development in Armenian music due to weakened nationhood – and the adoption of Soviet Armenian sponsored folk music and the adaptation of this kind of music. Also, with a lack of material, original music was arranged and added to repertoires for bands.
• Kazarian wanted to play in a symphony orchestra setting, and began studies at Julliard. He funded his living expenses by playing in middle eastern music club such as Egyptian Gardens, Arabian Nights, Istanbul, Port Said, the Britannia, Kifisya and others – and all the clubs were very diverse and international – but a common language of Turkish given all the cultures and geography of their ancestry. Port Said would have luminaries like Leonard Bernstein drop in to check out the music.
• Kazarian would give legend Udi Hrant a ride home after his performances, and shares some stories on interacting with him, including almost going to the Catskills with Hrant at age 13 to learn the basics of middle eastern music. The Catskills generally referred to getting away from the city in a retreat like recreational setting for Armenian and Greek families on the East Coast of the US – and some of the young musicians got their start in this setting performing and gaining experience.
• Discussion of the Kef Time recordings and moving to Las Vegas with Richard Hagopian and Buddy Sarkissian after Kazarian graduated from school. Good times at the Flamingo, the Bonanza and the Frontier Hotel.
• Kazarian then spent time in California in San Francisco, Fresno and the surrounding towns playing in middle eastern night clubs. Then Jack Chalikian got involved with the group on kanun as well. Recordings were made in the Kef Time vein for Las Vegas, Fresno, Hartford and Detroit.
• Kazarian developed his own unique style over time by listening to various recordings and practicing his own technique of playing "neat and clean". He advised against copying which can lead to exaggeration in playing style.
• Kazarian would watch the muzrab hand of the oud player to gauge timing and rhythm, and would mimic this movement – especially for establishing meter.
• Kazarian places importance on feel and embellishment as most of the songs are simple in his opinion, and advises listening to as much as one can in different styles, and learn your instrument to the point where you know a song well enough that it becomes second nature. Practice slow to "say something musically", as meaningful music tends to not be as fast. Learn music theory and expand your vocabulary. The awareness needed when playing in a group.

Joseph Tayoun, an accomplished percussionist and educator specializing in Middle Eastern and World music based in Philadelphia discusses the history of Philadelphia's Middle East Night Club, his experience playing in a multitude of world music projects and his Star Trek Party band, The Roddenberries, upcoming release.

Topics include:

• Tayoun as the torchbearer of the Philadelphia middle eastern music scene, an accomplished percussionist and the time spent at his family's establishment "The Middle East" restaurant as part of the trendy middle eastern music scene.
• Discussion of the diverse array of middle eastern cultures playing music together.
• Tayoun's background starting up as a drummer playing with various musicians of different backgrounds.
• Belly dancing and live music 7 nights a week was truly a special time for Tayoun as a youngster
• Tayoun's father played the oud and he was immersed in live performance of Arabs, Armenians, Turks, Greeks, etc.
• Ray Merjanian (oud), Najib Nassar (organ), Chick Ganimian (oud) and Tayoun played with Chick when Tayoun was only 14 years old. Chick was known for his expressive and unique style of playing featuring syncopation and Tayoun was impacted greatly by this. Chick also played with Herbie Mann.
• Tayoun also played with Farhak Alpar (Saz), Garip (violin), Edmund Joseph (percussion/vocals), Joseph Budway (oud), Bobby Sarkissian (clarinet) and various others.
• The Middle East restaurant was the music hub for this style for many years (along with Café Yaz) until about 1997, and how some other restaurants offered late night music (Greek spots like Little Pete's and also Buffalo Bills in West Philadelphia), and the emergence of the Nile restaurant. The Middle East booked shows with No Doubt and Bo Diddley, in addition to the standard Middle Eastern scene.
• Edmund Joseph's arrival from Iran and his impact on the Middle Eastern music scene in both Philadelphia and New York City.
• Tayoun's early years developing as a percussionist watching his father and the older musicians, and starting with tambourine and then percussion.
• Hamid Dolbashi's performances with ney and zurna and his command of the music and how easily he fit in with other musicians.
• Tayoun's time playing music with his future brother-in-law Roger Mgrdichian, and their strong onstage chemistry.
• Going from rock to fusion, with projects like Barakka and also Jaffna which features a tabla, oud and guitar, and how this has had an impact on his playing and keeping him sharp.
• Tayoun works with emotionally disturbed children in Morrisville, PA and shares his music and drumming which is very beneficial to the brain.
• Works with various musicians from all over the world, including Chinese and even sci-fi related artists (a Star Trek tribute band named "The Roddenberries") at Fringe Festival.
• For the 50th Anniversary of the creation of Star Trek, Rod Roddenberry (Gene Roddenberry's son) hired Tayoun and the band to perform in Las Vegas.
• Tayoun's advice for playing percussion in the Middle Eastern style.
• The upcoming Middle East tribute night at Frankie Bradleys on June 13th with live music and belly dancers
• The upcoming CD Release party on June 27th at the World Cafe Live in Philadelphia for The Roddenberries

Peter Deneff, an accomplished Pianist and Jazz Fusion musician, discusses his background, his involvement in the Los Angeles Middle Eastern Music club Scene, and his approach to microtonality and Jazz music.

Topics Include:

• Deneff's background as a Greek-American keyboard/piano musician, growing up in Long Beach/Los Angeles
• Impact of the bouzouki on his musical development and interests and working with artists from other ethnic backgrounds
• Collecting LPs and copying them to cassette tapes – compilations from the past and listening to those artists and how that influenced his playing and repertoire
• The peak of the music scene at Athenian Gardens in the SoCal live cabaret/bellydance music scene in the 70s/80s/90s
• The cultural melding of Greek and Gypsy/Turkish music (Skilarika), and the influence of Pontic Greeks in that style along with the music scene of Thessaloniki
• Exposure to the Armenian music scene locally with aficionados and artists (Harout Khatchoyan, Yervand Kalajian, Vik Momjian, Hratch Yacoubian, Hovig Krikorian)
• The impact of Persian and Arabic music on his career and how this blended with his Greek background in music
• Detail of his studying with Mike Garson (legendary Jazz Pianist who worked with David Bowie)
• Thoughts on music as a language with different dialects across middle eastern music and jazz
• Would practice playing along to Charlie Parker's music
• Differences between makam music and jazz, and how they informed his understanding of proficiency in both styles
• His use of microtonality in his music in makam and jazz music, and his first memory of hearing quarter tones used by a Lebanese tsiftelli record years ago
• Discussion of various keyboards and synthesizers he uses in his music, and the use of scale converters for quarter-tone usage
• Explanation of quarter tones in Arabic music, the use of 50 cent adjustments
• Different flavors of microtonality he uses in his music, for example hijaz and the adjustment of various pitches within the mode and how live music can diverge from the uniformity and rigidity of the classical motif
• Mention of playing quarter/microtones on the bouzouki from certain players
• His attraction to how Armenian music in the 1970s and 1980s moved toward keyboard-centric instrumentation and the impact of this on his musical development
• His performances are about speaking to the audience and interaction with people and the connections that arise from his music and performance
• Keyboards and accordions used in Greek music, along with Farfisa organs
• The "dead zone" of lacking keyboards in Greek music back several decades ago was not exploring keyboards like Armenian music was, and now there is a lot more clarinet and violin exposure with microtonality and reincorporation of traditional ethnic elements – which was not the scene when he was coming up playing music
• Comments on some of the Greek keyboard players he listened too for musical guidance and perspective
• His work with Enrico Macias
• IM's work with the synth app and upcoming sample library recording projects
• Would love to do concerts with Bach and the Beatles, Kasansides, Paliyolokous
• Excursion, Synthesi projects are a big focus for him