Julian and I “begin before the beginning” and discuss the Christian origins of the phrase dark night of the soul. I remind him of an email he sent to me at the start of my dark night; we talk about the downward trajectory of the descent into soul, body, history, and pain, and how it is the opposite of the idea of spiritual ascent; and we describe it as an ongoing shedding of armour, ideas, expectations, shoulds, and more.

Amongst many other things, we also touch on no longer being “on the old map with the old co-ordinates”; dissolution, and the collapse of the old structures; the problem with dismissing our own cultural roots; and Jesus as an archetypal story of divine embodiment. We share our experiences of serious wobbles and severe anxiety; the sudden dawning of what has previously been invisible; cleaving to suffering and the tendency to fall back; and the importance of not getting washed out of the boat. We acknowledge how tough it is to be in the dark night; we mention healing, and what that might mean in this context; and we talk about how love, sanity, and capacity slowly begin to seep in and imbue us.

Julian Carlyon is the author of two books: One Earth, Three Worlds: The Pattern that Connects Dreams, Synchronicity, Physics, Homeopathy, Spirituality and Somatics, and Understanding Homeopathy, Homeopathic Understanding: Foundations of Homeopathic Philosophy and Practice. Since his early twenties, he has explored an eclectic range of disciplines, including homeopathy, transpersonal psychology, alchemy, and movement practice. He sees clients from around the world, lives in the UK, and is a father and grandfather.

Connect with Julian

Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She meets with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors.

Connect with Fiona

Mentions

Julian mentions the Diamond Approach, founded by A. H. Almaas.

Julian paraphrases this quote from C. G. Jung: “Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate.”

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share.

You're welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com

Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

Following on from our previous conversation, Suzette and I explore the sacred wildness of life, and what it means to rediscover, re-member, and honour the sacred wild self. We talk about being in kinship with the natural world as children, and how the sacred wild self rarely conforms to societal expectations; we touch on the sense of the ancient that infuses the sacred wildness; and we discuss how the dark night is the start of the reclamation of who we are at our core.

Amongst other things, we also talk about the heart space that continues to open as we remember the sacred wildness; how we can enter this space via the portals of everyday experience; and the sense of perception that "can tap us into a larger, deeper knowing." We explore how our connection to with the sacred wildness can be nurtured by getting quiet and listening; by being in nature, in whatever form nature is accessible to us; and by being with others who honour the truth of who we are and what we're experiencing in the moment. Finally, we touch on the longing to return to the sacred wildness, and its calling to us, because it wants us back.

Suzette Winona Summers has been on a conscious healing and awakening path for most of her life. She is a sacred circle weaver, shamanic practitioner, Ecstatic Dance Journey Facilitator, and cosmic midwife/coach who works with both individuals and communities. She offers shamanic healing sessions, craniosacral sessions, and intuitive massage, and she also weaves sacred circles and ceremonies, offering both ecstatic dance journeys and heart-centred talking circles. She lives in Louisville, Kentucky.

Connect with Suzette

Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She meets with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors.

Connect with Fiona

Mentions

Suzette mentions Toko-pa Turner's books, Belonging: Remembering Ourselves Home and The Dreaming Way: Courting the Wisdom of Dreams. She also mentions Michael Meade, and cites Anais Nin's quote, "And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom."

If you've enjoyed this episode, please rate, subscribe, and share. Thank you!

You're welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com

Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

Suzette has had many dark nights of the soul, the most recent of which began when her oldest daughter passed away seven years ago. Her heart cracked open as she was plunged into a profound initiation, a kind of natural vision quest; from that point on, she has been “walking in multiple worlds.”

Amongst many things, we talk about being humans subject to the laws of nature, rather than machines that are constantly expected to be or do more; the unfurling that happens as we move towards what we’ve previously tried to stay away from; and the aloneness and seclusion of the dark night. We discuss the overlap between grief and the dark night; how visceral both experiences are, and their similarities to childbirth; and being in the place of “nope” where it is impossible to imagine how we will get through the terrain we’re in. We acknowledge the times of inaction or waiting that happen in the dark night, and how hard it can be to change our behaviour. We also touch into stepping back into our bodies; rediscovering our wild, untamed, undomesticated selves; how little lights can unexpectedly guide us; and embracing the fullness and miraculousness of ourselves.

Suzette Winona Summers has been on a conscious healing and awakening path for most of her life. She is a sacred circle weaver, shamanic practitioner, Ecstatic Dance Journey Facilitator, and cosmic midwife/coach who works with both individuals and communities. She offers shamanic healing sessions, craniosacral sessions, and intuitive massage, and she also weaves sacred ceremonies, offering both ecstatic dance journeys and heart-centred talking circles. She lives in Louisville, Kentucky.

Connect with Suzette

Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She meets with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors.

Connect with Fiona

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share.

You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com

Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

Before his dark night began, Bart was a highly intellectual physician with no interest whatsoever in spirituality. He had, as he says, “worked for a long time cutting off bodily feelings.” Then an injury ended his ability to function, leaving him depressed and unable to work. When he saw an eight-foot angel fish at the end of his bed, and began to dream vividly, he was prompted to venture into the imaginal and somatic realms. Since then, he has explored his inner terrain in a variety of ways including dream work, embodied inquiry, spiritual teachings, and plant medicines.

Amongst other things, Bart and I talk about his identification with Iron Man, and how he shut out joy as well as pain as a little child; the ways in which insights and realisations came for him during dreams; and how his approach to his medical practice developed as his explorations continued. We also touch into how he slowly opened his heart chakra; the way that psychological pain can sometimes “feed” physical pain; and how working with bodily sensations helped in the unravelling of knots. And finally, Bart shares how, after a revelation or opening, we often also experience some kind of backlash or push back.

Dr Bart Balint is a retired anesthesiologist and the author of The Giant Clam and Other Visions: An Allopathic Physician Explores Non-Ordinary States and Reconciles with Joy. Over a number of years, he has experienced a profound shift in perspective from the guilt-ridden religious beliefs that previously ruled his life to a paradigm of exploration, play, and insight. He lives with his life partner, Melanie Balint Gray, and they continue to journey together.

Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She meets with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors.

Connect with Fiona

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share.

You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com

Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

The dark night “pulled” at Melanie in her twenties, but it wasn’t until her forties that she was willing and able to hear its calling. As her work and marriage fell apart, she found herself in a dark, heavy place, and “went down into a different space of me.” Having always been a “good little girl” who walked on eggshells and did her best to please everyone, she began to encounter everything that lay beneath her persona. Like an archaeologist, she painstakingly worked through many layers of self-hatred and shame.

Amongst many other things, Melanie and I talk about finally being able to say no, and refusing to pass the dysfunctional buck onto the next generation; the crumbling of the old ways and what happens when our operating systems stop working; and refusing to pretend. We also discuss the humaneness of including all of ourselves; cracking our hearts open and touching into the breathtaking, heartbreaking beauty of life; and learning how to trust ourselves whilst also leaning on others. Finally, we touch into the sanity that emerges out of the dark night process and how, even though at times it feels like madness, “you might actually be finding your sanity.”

Melanie Balint Gray PhD

Some influential moments:

1. Living abroad for ten years as a child honed adaptability, tolerance, empathy, and compassion.

2. Steeping in familial secrets honed shame, guilt, self-hatred, and victimhood.

3. A PhD in Immunology expanded critical thinking.

4. Raising children brought meditation, the super-sensible, and a new view of humanness.

5. Facing divorce, job loss, and depression peeled away worn out beliefs.

6. Now I sit with others while they see what wants to be met and/or fall away.

Melanie can be reached via email: graymelanie111@gmail.com

Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She meets with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors.

Connect with Fiona

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share.

You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com

Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

Kristy’s first dark night experience began when her dog – her attachment figure – died when she was ten, and she lost her trust in life. Over the next twenty years, things seemed to improve; she left home, learnt how to meditate, began training as a counsellor, and started to explore her childhood trauma. During a somatic experiencing session, she had a profound recognition, which at the time seemed little more than a subtle “click”. The ensuing sense of grace and effortlessness – very different from her usually tumultuous inner world – lasted for a couple of weeks. After that, it was as if a threshold had been crossed; the process of unravelling both an entire lifetime’s and many generations of tension began.

We discuss – amongst many other things – the nature of the twisted double-stranded rope; how evolution is bringing us back into our natural state and undoing the effects of thousands of years of empire; and the importance of being in the presence of nature. We also talk about the space of love and unconditionality that starts to slowly move to the foreground, and how something profound, beautiful, and mind-blowing begins to emerge on the other side of the dark night.

Kristy Johnsson began her career as an environmental researcher, before doing an MSc in Clinical Counselling. Working with a somatic-ecotherapeutic approach that honours the intelligence of nature, she has undertaken her own deep psychosomatic explorations, as well as walking alongside many others (sometimes literally) in theirs. She has years of experience of environmental and outdoor education rooted in social justice, and is currently travelling in Australasia, while connecting ever more deeply with the more-than-human world.

Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She works one to one with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors.

Connect with Fiona

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share.

You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com

Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

Following on from our previous conversation, Tim and I touch on the profound mattering of every life, even in the face of futility and nihilism. We discuss the reckoning with mortality that occurs in the dark night, and he proposes that, rather than fixed objects, we are dynamic processes in time, and thus the possibility of radical newness is inherent with us.

Tim shares his philosophy of death, which is informed by his experiences of being with dying people, and by extensive research on NDEs (Near Death Experiences) and terminal lucidity. He suggests that, while the biological dies, the psyche continues on and enters into “the ecology of soul” before (at some point) re-combining with the biological. We mention the physicalist view that consciousness originates in the brain; the notion of pastivity as an organisational system; and the way in which “the ability of the psyche to survive the death of the body has evolved.” We also talk about the importance of cultivating what Tim calls psy-sensing – the sensing of the phenomena of the psyche, including thoughts, memories, dreams, spiritual experiences, and the imaginal realm – and how all of this is just the beginnings of an understanding.

Tim Freke has written many books on religion, mysticism, and spirituality, one of which – The Jesus Mysteries, co-authored with Peter Gandy – became a bestseller. In 2017, he wrote Soul Story: Evolution and the Self-Realising Universe, which offers a new narrative connecting spirituality and science. Tim also leads experiential retreats, both in person and online, in which participants experience the “Big Love” of deep communion. His new podbook, Why Your Life Really Matters, explores his latest philosophy in detail.

Connect with Tim

Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She meets with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors.

Connect with Fiona

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share.

You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com

Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit

Tim began asking questions about the nature of life, death, suffering, and the world from an early age, and has never stopped. His first transformative awakening experience happened when he was twelve, and he became a philosopher, spending decades studying, writing, speaking, and leading experiential retreats. Over the last few years, he’s had a radical change of mind and is now in the process of laying out his new philosophy on the evolutionary nature of existence – and much else besides – in his podbook, Why Your Life Really Matters.

In this conversation, Tim and I tentatively begin to create a philosophical scaffolding for the dark night of the soul. We discuss – amongst many other things – Tim’s concept of “pastivity” and how the past is implicit in both the present and ourselves; being stunned by our own foolishness; and the importance of asking deep questions and cultivating an “open system”. We also talk about how everything is one process of evolutionary emergence, including the self; the nature of the big loving intelligence in which suffering is redeemed; the redemptive nature of the dark night and the bittersweetness of life; and how it is to be a lover of the fullness of existence.

Tim Freke has written many books on religion, mysticism, and spirituality, one of which – The Jesus Mysteries, co-authored with Peter Gandy – became a bestseller. In 2017, Tim wrote Soul Story: Evolution and the Self-Realising Universe, which offers a new narrative connecting spirituality and science. Tim also leads experiential retreats, both in person and online, in which participants experience the “Big Love” of deep communion. His new podbook, Why Your Life Really Matters, explores his latest philosophy in detail.

Connect with Tim

Fiona Robertson is the author of The Dark Night of the Soul: A Journey from Absence to Presence, and Eve Was a Realist: Poems for the Untamed Heart. She meets with people who are going through a dark night or spiritual emergency, accompanying them in this challenging terrain as they rediscover and deepen into their real selves. She also offers a monthly dark night gathering group, and occasional workshops for therapists and counsellors.

Connect with Fiona

If you’ve enjoyed this episode, please subscribe and share.

You’re welcome to contact The Dark Night of the Soul Unwrapped via email: darknightunwrapped@gmail.com

Music by James Waring / Design by Adam McKillop / Artwork by Stefan Armoneit