In this episode of The Geek in Review, we sit down with Narrative founder John Tertan to talk about law firm pricing, messy data, and why substance matters more than shiny tools. We pick up from our first meeting at the Houston Legal Innovators event, where John had the pricing and KM crowd buzzing, and ask what he is hearing from those teams as they look toward 2026. John explains how Narrative focuses on “agentifying” business-of-law work, starting with pricing and analytics, so firms stop guessing and start grounding decisions in better data. The goal is simple, improve decisions for pricing teams, finance, marketing, and partners who want to win work that also makes financial sense.

John walks through the pain points that drive firms to seek out Narrative, from low realization and high write-offs to tedious non-billable work and a lack of trust in the data behind pitches and budgets. Many firms track key metrics in scattered spreadsheets, checked once in a while rather than used as a daily guide for strategy. Narrative steps into that gap by improving the accuracy of historical matter data, identifying the right reference matters for new proposals, and supporting alternative fee structures. John explains how this foundation supports better scoping, more confident pricing conversations, and far stronger alignment between firm goals and client expectations.

We also dive into John’s founder journey, which runs from Freshfields associate to innovation work, then through venture-backed tech in other sectors before returning to legal. That mix of big law, startup experience, and prior success with HeyGo shapes how he builds Narrative. John talks about serving “mature customers” who expect more than a slick interface, they expect real understanding of their business, their politics, and their constraints. Relationships sit at the center of his approach, not only with clients and prospects, but also with advisors, former firm leaders, and legal tech veterans who guide both product and go-to-market strategy.

The name “Narrative” is no accident, and John explains why time entry narratives sit at the heart of his product. Those lines of text describe what lawyers did, for whom, and why, yet they often sit underused in billing systems. Narrative improves and structures that data, then uses it to highlight scope, track what remains in or out of scope, and surface early warnings when matters drift away from the original plan. John talks through the life cycle, from selecting comparable matters, through modeling AFAs and scenarios, to monitoring work in progress and feeding lessons back into future pricing efforts. Along the way, better transparency supports stronger trust between partners and clients.

We close by asking John to look ahead. He shares his view on how firms will move toward more sophisticated pricing models and better measurement, while the billable hour continues to evolve rather than vanish overnight. Stronger baselines, cleaner matter histories, and better tracking create room for fee caps, success components, and other structures that clients want to sell internally. John also shares how he stays informed through alerts, networks, and a new chief of staff who helps turn those insights into resources for pricing and finance professionals. For listeners who want to learn more or follow Narrative’s work, John points them to narrativehq.com and invites outreach from anyone wrestling with data, pricing, or margin questions inside their own firm.

Listen on mobile platforms: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

[Special Thanks to ⁠Legal Technology Hub⁠ for their sponsoring this episode.]

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.com
Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

This week on The Geek in Review, we bring together a trio of Canadian legends from the legal web to celebrate the 20th anniversary of the Canadian Law Blog Awards, better known as the Clawbies. Steve Matthews of STEM Legal and Slaw.ca, Sarah Sutherland of Parallax Information Consulting and former president and CEO of CanLII, and legal market analyst and Substack author, Jordan Furlong join us to talk about how legal publishing has changed over two decades and where it heads next. Along the way, we share a little host pride, since 3 Geeks and a Law Blog picked up a Friend of the North Clawbies back in 2011. Canada remembers, even if the trophy cabinet looks a little full on our side of the border.

We start with Steve’s long-running mantra: do not build your professional home on rented land. For years he pushed lawyers toward blogs and owned domains, warning that social platforms could change rules overnight or simply fall apart. That warning came into sharp focus as Twitter morphed into X and law Twitter scattered toward BlueSky, Mastodon, Threads and other venues. Jordan talks about deleting years of tweets rather than leaving a personal archive tied to a platform he no longer trusts, then describes how his own publishing shifted from long-form blogging at Law21 to a Substack newsletter model that feels more like a curated living room of engaged readers than a noisy town square.

From there, Sarah introduces one of our favorite phrases in the episode, “law’s eternal September,” where a constant wave of new technology, including generative AI, keeps the justice system and the information world in permanent transition. We explore how legal publishers now balance automation and human judgment, with AI helping on classification, annotations, and summaries, while editors and authors still play a central role in verification and context. We share our own experience with AI-assisted prep for the show, and how a human guest had to correct outdated biographical details. That leads to a broader point about the need for trusted, non-AI sources that give researchers, lawyers, and readers a place to check facts and assumptions before sharing work with clients or the public.

Jordan, Steve, and Sarah then turn to the Clawbies themselves and the theme they have set for the upcoming awards year: “the year of the truth teller.” In an era of disinformation, sloppy AI content, and reputation-damaging LinkedIn posts, lawyers and legal professionals gain real value by standing out as accurate, consistent voices who care about community as much as client work. Steve explains how the Clawbies now cover blogs, newsletters, podcasts, Tik Toks, and other formats, while still focusing on authenticity and public legal education. We also learn about the “humble Canadian rule,” where nominators highlight one to three other voices, while the organizers quietly take a closer look at the nominator’s own work in the background. The mission stays the same: surface new voices, new formats, and generous contributors who strengthen public conversation.

We close with a look ahead. Steve predicts more structured, list-driven use of newer platforms like BlueSky for targeted conversations, while Sarah points to growing centralization as giants such as Thomson Reuters, LexisNexis, and Clio blend publishing and practice software. Jordan sees a fractured present, with silos and distrust, but also anticipates a future pull toward recombination, where readers gravitate to sources and bundles that feel trustworthy again. Through it all, the three guests encourage anyone interested in writing, podcasting, or other media to choose a format that fits personal strengths, commit to thoughtful output, and focus on truth-telling over pure marketing.

[Special Thanks to ⁠Legal Technology Hub⁠ for their sponsoring this episode.]

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.com
Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

This week we welcome Jiyun Hyo, co-founder and CEO of Givance, for a conversation about moving legal AI past shiny summaries toward verified work product. Jiyun’s path runs from Duke robotics, where layered agents watched other agents, to clinical mental health bots, where confident errors carry human cost. Those lessons shape his view of legal tools today: foundation models often answer like students guessing on a pop quiz, sounding sure while drifting from fact.

A key idea is the “last ten percent gap.” Many systems reach outputs that look right on first pass yet slip on a few crucial details. In low-stakes tasks, small misses are a nuisance. In litigation, one missing email or one misplaced time stamp risks ruining trust and admissibility. Jiyun adds a second problem: when users ask for a tiny correction, models tend to rebuild the whole output, so precision edits become a loop of fixes and new breakage.

Givance aims at that gap through text-to-visual evidence work. The platform turns piles of documents into interactive charts with links back to source files. Examples include Gantt charts for personnel histories, Sankey diagrams for asset flows, overlap views for evidence exchanges, and timelines that surface contradictions across thousands of records. Jiyun shares early law-firm use: rapid fact digestion after a data dump, clearer client conversations around case theory, and courtroom visuals that help judges and juries follow a sequence without sketching their own shaky diagrams.

Safety, supervision, and security follow naturally. Drawing on robotics, Jiyun argues for a live supervisory layer during agentic workflows so alerts surface while negotiations or analyses unfold rather than days later. Too many alerts, though, create noise, so tuning confidence thresholds becomes part of product design. On security, Givance works in isolated environments, strips identifiers before model calls, and keeps architecture model-agnostic so newer systems slot in without reopening privacy debates.

The episode ends on market dynamics and the near future. Jiyun sees mega-funded text-first platforms as market openers, normalizing AI buying and leaving room for second-wave multimodal tools. Asked whether the search bar in document review fades away, he expects search to stick around for a long while because lawyers associate a search box with control, even if chat interfaces improve. The bigger shift, in his view, lies in outputs, more interactive visuals that help legal teams spot gaps, test case stories, and present evidence with clarity.

Listen on mobile platforms: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

[Special Thanks to ⁠Legal Technology Hub⁠ for their sponsoring this episode.]

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.com
Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Transcript:

We recorded this episode live at the TLTF Summit and the energy in the room made it feel like the perfect place for a conversation about growth, training, and the rapid climb of legal tech. We grabbed our gear, claimed a corner in the podcast room, and pulled in two guests with front row seats to the changes hitting the industry. Joining us were Kyle Poe from Legora and our friend and guest host, Zena Applebaum of Harbor. The Summit attracts a focused group of founders, investors, and leaders, and the four of us jumped straight into what this event represents and what attendees hope to get from it.

Kyle had been on the job for only two months, but Legora moves at a pace that feels closer to dog years. In that short time the team doubled, a new round of funding closed, and the company introduced a major product release. Kyle walked us through Legora’s new Portal experience, which brings clients inside the legal workflow in a controlled, collaborative environment. Instead of long email chains and static work product, the Portal supports shared editing, direct review of diligence work, and a more responsive model for client engagement. In an era when clients expect quick turnarounds, this shift sets up a new dynamic for firms.

Zena added helpful perspective from her prior trips to TLTF. She described the Summit as a place that rewards conversation, curiosity, and hallway exchanges. It is also a place to study the different stages of the legal tech journey, from early ideas on the startup stage to the seasoned players on the scale stage. She also brought timely news of Harbor’s acquisition of Encore Technologies, a move that strengthens Harbor’s ability to support training and adoption workflows across firms and corporate legal teams. Her focus on education paired well with Kyle’s insights on how Legora approaches enablement through its team of legal engineers.

Training became the heart of the conversation. We compared old habits with the expectations of a generation of associates who have been taught to avoid AI until they enter a firm. Kyle stressed the need to anchor attorney training in real use cases and to give them early wins so they build trust in the tools. He described the shift from task-based training to workflow-based thinking.

We also talked about how AI is influencing both the pace and structure of client service. Kyle shared examples of how Legora uses prior work product to build integrated workflows, such as interrogatory response generators that pull from a full library of past responses. This not only speeds up production but also increases consistency and helps attorneys understand the reasoning behind revisions. Zena pushed the idea even further, noting that these systems give associates a chance to study the rationale behind changes in a way that human reviewers rarely have time to provide. This leads to better training and stronger validation of the final work product.

We closed with our crystal ball question. Kyle sees more adoption on the horizon but also anticipates uneven impacts across different practices as firms figure out how to adjust their business models. Zena pointed to the operational challenges ahead, especially the pressure to invest in data management and cloud infrastructure that supports true AI enablement. Her message was clear. If firms want the benefits later, they need to start organizing the foundations now. This episode blends optimism with realism, and it highlights the practical work ahead for firms, vendors, and everyone in between. Tune in for the full conversation and get ready for a lively discussion recorded right in the middle of the Summit buzz.

Listen on mobile platforms: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

[Special Thanks to ⁠Legal Technology Hub⁠ for their sponsoring this episode.]

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.com
Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

This week on The Geek in Review, Greg Lambert and Marlene Gebauer sit down to compare notes from a busy conference season. Marlene shares her experience at the American Legal Technology Awards where The Geek in Review was honored for excellence in journalism. She recounts the surreal joy of being recognized among friends and peers in legal tech, including fellow nominees like Steve Embry, and how a spontaneous speech turned out to be one of the night’s highlights. The duo reflects on how events like this underscore the sense of community that continues to define the innovation side of the legal industry.

Greg takes listeners behind the scenes at ClioCon, describing it as one of the most energetic user conferences around. He dives into his conversation with Clio CEO Jack Newton and how the company’s recent vLex acquisition signals a bold expansion into the Big Law space. With $900 million in funding, Clio appears ready to bridge the divide between small-firm technology and enterprise-level workflows. Greg also teases an illuminating hallway chat with Ed Walters, now at Clio Library (formerly Fastcase), about the major leap forward in legal research accuracy driven by improvements in RAG (retrieval-augmented generation) and vector database indexing.

Marlene offers her own takeaways from the Association of Corporate Counsel (ACC) Annual Meeting, where AI and governance dominated the agenda. She describes a landscape where in-house lawyers are wrestling with both the promise and peril of generative AI, from shadow AI concerns to data hygiene challenges. Her biggest surprise was seeing law firms themselves exhibiting at the ACC conference, signaling a shift toward direct engagement between firms and their corporate clients in shared learning spaces.

Together, Greg and Marlene unpack the emerging themes of human-centered governance, the evolving role of AI in matter management, and the race among vendors to automate core workflows without losing the human touch. From Clio’s plans to build AI-driven workflow mapping that could auto-draft documents, to Marlene’s caution about how bespoke law firm processes might resist one-size-fits-all automation, their discussion paints a picture of a profession both accelerating and self-checking at once.

The episode winds down with lighter reflections on travel mishaps, conference after-parties, and the long arc of Richard Susskind’s The End of Lawyers? conversation—still ongoing, now infused with cautious optimism about AI’s role in expanding access to justice. As always, they end where The Geek in Review thrives: at the intersection of humor, humility, and the hopeful chaos of legal innovation.

Listen on mobile platforms: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

[Special Thanks to ⁠Legal Technology Hub⁠ for their sponsoring this episode.]

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.com
Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Transcript:

Artificial intelligence has moved fast, but trust has not kept pace. In this episode, Nam Nguyen, co-founder and COO of TruthSystems.ai, joins Greg Lambert and Marlene Gebauer to unpack what it means to build “trust infrastructure” for AI in law. Nguyen’s background is unusually cross-wired—linguistics, computer science, and applied AI research at Stanford Law—giving him a clear view of both the language and logic behind responsible machine reasoning. From his early work in Vietnam to collaborations at Stanford with Dr. Megan Ma, Nguyen has focused on a central question: who ensures that the systems shaping legal work remain safe, compliant, and accountable?

Nguyen explains that TruthSystems emerged from this question as a company focused on operationalizing trust, not theorizing about it. Rather than publishing white papers on AI ethics, his team builds the guardrails law firms need now. Their platform, Charter, acts as a governance layer that can monitor, restrict, and guide AI use across firm environments in real time. Whether a lawyer is drafting in ChatGPT, experimenting with CoCounsel, or testing Copilot, Charter helps firms enforce both client restrictions and internal policies before a breach or misstep occurs. It’s an attempt to turn trust from a static policy on a SharePoint site into a living, automated practice.

A core principle of Nguyen’s work is that AI should be both the subject and the infrastructure of governance. In other words, AI deserves oversight but is also uniquely suited to implement it. Because large language models excel at interpreting text and managing unstructured data, they can help detect compliance or ethical risks as they happen. TruthSystems’ vision is to make governance continuous and adaptive, embedding it directly into lawyers’ daily workflows. The aim is not to slow innovation, but to make it sustainable and auditable.

The conversation also tackles the myth of “hallucination-free” systems. Nguyen is candid about the limitations of retrieval-augmented generation, noting that both retrieval and generation introduce their own failure modes. He argues that most models have been trained to sound confident rather than be accurate, penalizing expressions of uncertainty. TruthSystems takes the opposite approach, favoring smaller, predictable models that reward contradiction-spotting and verification. His critique offers a reminder that speed and safety in AI rarely coexist by accident—they must be engineered together.

Finally, Nguyen discusses TruthSystems’ recent $4 million seed round, led by Gradient Ventures and Lightspeed, which will fund the expansion of their real-time visibility tools and firm partnerships. He envisions a future where firms treat governance not as red tape but as a differentiator, using data on AI use to assure clients and regulators alike. As he puts it, compliance will no longer be the blocker to innovation—it will be the proof of trust at scale.

Listen on mobile platforms: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Apple Podcasts⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Spotify⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ | ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

[Special Thanks to ⁠Legal Technology Hub⁠ for their sponsoring this episode.]

⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Email: geekinreviewpodcast@gmail.com
Music: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Jerry David DeCicca⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

Transcript: