Nick Cohen and Anne Applebaum discuss the current state of democracy in the United States and Europe, focusing on the rise of populism and identity politics, while exploring how political figures maintain support despite policy failures. They examined the systematic dismantling of American institutions under Trump's administration, including attacks on the civil service and potential weakening of military capabilities, while also discussing the emerging alliance between authoritarian states opposed to American influence. The conversation concluded with a discussion of the current state of American politics, including the narrow margins in recent elections and the need for effective opposition strategies to defend democratic values both in the U.S. and across Europe.

Democracy's Challenges in Populist Era

Anne and Nick talk about the current state of democracy in the United States and Europe, focusing on the rise of populism and the shift towards identity politics. Anne highlighted how political figures like Nigel Farage in the UK and Donald Trump in the US have maintained support despite policy failures, attributing it to the emotional appeal of their cultural identities. They explored the question of whether real-world issues like inflation and healthcare are now less important than online cultural battles. Andrew asked Anne about the dangers facing American democracy, to which she responded that it is indeed in danger, but the outcome is still uncertain.

The UK must wake up to the MAGA reality!

Anne argues that the UK should wake up to the new reality - Powerful elements at the top of the Trump White House & MAGA not only consider the so-called "special relationship" as not only over but see the UK as an enemy. Anne says, there's a very powerful strain. Inside this administration and inside the American far right who really hate Britain. And they hate Europeans and they hate the Germans. ... there's a constant narrative about how the British violate free speech and how, you know, Britain is, an extreme left country and so on."

She says, " I'm not saying they dominate this administration, and you won't hear this from Marco Rubio, but there is a strain inside MAGA, which essentially reflects Russian propaganda. ... there's a piece of, of that movement that doesn't really want anything to do with Britain or Europe anymore....I would watch out for that and as I said, have a contingency plan and think about a world in which the United States is run by people who are hostile to Britain."

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Nick Cohen and Sunder Katwala engage in a detailed discussion about the rise of right-wing extremism in Britain, analysing rabid right rabble-rousers like Nigel Farage and examining how his evolving stance and ambiguous approach appeal to both mainstream voters and extreme elements. They explored the current political climate, focusing on the challenges faced by mainstream conservative parties and the need for addressing legitimate concerns about immigration while drawing clear boundaries against racist ideologies. The conversation concluded with discussions about the fragmented state of British politics, the need for a coherent centre-right party, and the challenges faced by political leaders in navigating complex social and cultural issues.

Nick & Sunder discuss the rise of right-wing extremism in Britain, comparing current political figures like Nigel Farage to historical fascists. Sunder expresses concern about the right setting the agenda and the dominance of emotional arguments over factual evidence. However, he remained optimistic about the long-term progress of British society, drawing on his personal experiences of racial and cultural diversity.

Sunder says "we are under policing absolute fascism and racism. Elon Musk has brought it in and what [Steve] Bannon and Trump did is they said there will be no boundary between the respectful right and the racist."

Sunder says the sinister issue of so-called "re-migration" - in other words expelling ethnic minority Brits - will eventually do for the rabid right, saying, "There's immigration there's asylum. And these are tough issues in the centre left, but remotion, which is, you know, more people should leave them come in and re migration is a far right code ultimately for the people who really want to hear the word Remi.

It's about, you know, Sunder Katwala shouldn't been allowed to be born here. So if he was, let's get him out.... Okay. It's not gonna happen. But about from kick out the ethnic minority."

Hope can still beat hate

For all its problems, and the ranting of the right, Sunder argues the UK still has a lot going for it as a tolerant and diverse society, saying ":Britain is the most Successful multi-ethnic democracy in the western world. It's a generation ahead of Western Europe."

Overall, Sunder has a message of hope after a summer of far right race-baiting, demagoguery and even predictions of civil war: "It was a very sinister, silly season. We had people predicting civil war every weekend and it never quite erupting; Farage setting the asylum debate.

"It's felt like it's going backwards for a couple of years. We can and will reverse that...And you know, if people are making impossible promises to give us sort of fantasy politics that if you quit three more international treaties, your lives will be better. Let's make the opposite case."

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Sunder Katwala @sundersays is a director of the British Future think tank and a former general secretary of the Fabian Society. His book, How to be a patriot, is published by HarperNorth

Nick Cohen's @NichCohen4 latest Substack column Writing from London on politics and culture from the UK and beyond.

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Goodbye Normal - it was nice knowing you!

Nick Cohen and author & academic Yascha Mounk explore the enduring presence of populism and the challenges faced by centrists in adapting to changing political realities, discussing how assumptions about the world have evolved over the past 25 years. They examine various economic and political challenges across different countries, including Britain, Poland, and the United States, while analyzing how populists like Modi and Trump have capitalised on claims of representing the people against elites. The conversation concluded with discussions about the challenges facing American progressives and centre-left parties, emphasising the need for strategic adjustments and effective messaging to counteract populist threats and regain political credibility.

Challenges of Centrism in Populism Era

Yascha explains the enduring presence of populism and the challenges faced by centrists in the current political landscape. Yascha highlighted how assumptions about the world, particularly those held by liberal democrats, have been swept away over the past 25 years, similar to the period after World War II. He emphasises that centrists are often out of tune with the present because they cling to outdated worldviews rather than adapting to new realities. Andrew agreed, noting that Peter Mandelson's comment about Trump being the most consequential president in living memory reflects the shift from a neoliberal to a populist order.

Defending democracy and academic freedom

Yascha also emphasises the importance of defending democratic institutions and academic freedom against threats like Donald Trump, arguing that while some may have been willing to compromise on issues like diversity statements in the past, it is now crucial to stand firm. He criticises the tendency of some liberal professors and journalists to impose their values on society, which can backfire and drive people towards Trump-like figures.

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Yascha is Founder and Editor-in-Chief of the Persuasion Substack - @JoinPersuasion - and also has his own Yascha Mounk Substack column. A man of many talents, Yascha hosts his own podcast, The Good Fight. Yascha's latest and highly acclaimed book - The Identity Trap: A Story of Ideas and Power in Our Time - is published by Penguin. A political scientist, Yascha is also Professor of Practice at the School of Advanced International Studies of John Hopkins University in the U.S.

Nick Cohen's @NichCohen4 latest Substack column Writing from London on politics and culture from the UK and beyond.

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