What happens when you strip away sleep, ego, and every external measure of success for 330 kilometers? Doug Mayer, founder of Run the Alps, former Car Talk producer, and three-time Tour de Géants finisher, has spent years trying to answer that question.

His new graphic novel, Last of the Giants, is his best attempt yet. In this episode, Doug joins Zoë and Brendan to talk about leaving a 25-year career in radio to build a trail running tour company in Chamonix, why he kept going back to one of the world's most grueling ultramarathons, and how he translated the experience of hallucinating in a snowstorm at 3am into a visual story. He shares what he learned from interviewing neuroscientists, a Buddhist monk who specializes in suffering, and the world's leading expert on pilgrimages, all in service of understanding why we do hard things and what we bring back from them. The conversation touches on "meeting the dragon" (a Buddhist concept for the moment when your usual tools stop working), the hero's journey, why Tour de Géants feels like "the PhD of ultrarunning," and how Doug accidentally started dating someone mid-race because her prefrontal cortex was too exhausted to know better.

Links: • Last of the Giants by Doug Mayer, available at Bookshop.org, Amazon, and wherever books are sold

•Run the Alps – trail running tours in the European Alps

•Running Warehouse – gear guides and the Salomon Genesis

•Salt Lake Foothills Trail Races – May 30, 2026 (10k, half, 50k, 50 miler) More from UltraSignup Podcasts:

•The Buzz with Buzz Burrell – deep dives into ultrarunning culture and philosophy

•Between Two Pines – A trail running podcast that doesn't take itself too seriously

Pat Cade has a PhD in mathematics, coaches high school cross country in Leadville, Colorado, and has finished the Leadville 100 six times. In this conversation, he explains what years of research math taught him about endurance: small steady progress compounds, inspiration only strikes if you're showing up every day, and sometimes the breakthrough comes when you stop following the plan and just go climb the mountain because it's beautiful outside.

Pat shares how he and his wife landed in Leadville after leaving academia in New York, and how they decided to pour their energy into coaching and teaching after facing infertility. He breaks down what actually makes a good coach (hint: it's not yelling), why training at 10,000 feet requires rethinking everything you learned about recovery, and what the Leadville 100's Dream Chaser program is all about. He also attempts to explain his dissertation, including whether the universe might be shaped like a donut, in terms anyone can follow. Zoë and Brendan are mostly able to keep up.

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Featured Race: The Salt and Sulphur 420 is a 420-mile journey run from Salt Lake City to West Yellowstone, traversing the Wasatch Range, Bear Lake, Jackson Hole, the Tetons, and finishing at the doorstep of Yellowstone. This isn't a stage race—it's a test of resourcefulness and mental grit across four states, with all proceeds benefiting the Women's Center in Salt Lake City. Registration closes February 1st. Learn more and sign up at ultrasignup.com/register.aspx?did=118718.