Recorded live at Meow Wolf in Santa Fe, this episode features a wide-ranging conversation between Todd and Andy Baker about learning, safety culture, and leadership influence.

They dig into HOP and related safety approaches, debate top-down versus middle-out change, discuss the importance of language and unlearning, and explore how to turn belief into practical skill and behavior.

The episode offers real-world insights on piloting change, engaging leaders and middle managers, and learning from others who have adapted these ideas in novel ways.

Tiny Todd Conklin joins the No Way Out podcast to explore Human and Organizational Performance (HOP), high-reliability organizing, and how safety emerges from complex systems rather than individual mistakes.

They critique traditional investigations, surveys, and risk matrices, and discuss practical ideas for building capacity, worker agency, psychological safety, and resilient operations.

This episode examines the growing problem of children accidentally left in hot cars, explains why memory failures can happen to anyone, and argues that punishment is not the solution.

It summarizes practical approaches—accepting the risk, assuming "when, not if," using technology and visual reminders, and responding with understanding rather than judgment—to create system-level changes that improve recoverability and prevent future tragedies.