Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Harrison Garlick and Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson of Pepperdine University discuss cantos 13-17 of Dante's Purgatorio--the purging of envy and wrath.

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Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson joins Deacon Harrison Garlick to discuss Cantos 13–17, covering the terraces of envy (Canto 13) and wrath (Cantos 14–17), with a strong focus on the central discourses in the middle of the Comedy.

In Canto 13, the envious have their eyelids sewn shut with iron wire, a contrapasso that forces them to rely on others and recognize interdependence. Wilson explains: “envy is to look cross-eyed on another's blessings... to look askance,” and the disembodied voices proclaim examples of generosity (Cana, “I am Orestes,” “Love them from whom you’ve suffered evil”), teaching a mindset of abundance over scarcity (Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson). Sapia humbly confesses her envy and malice, contrasting with the divisive souls in Inferno.

Cantos 14–15 transition to wrath, with visions of meekness (Mary and Joseph seeking Jesus, a tyrant sparing a youth, Stephen forgiving his stoners) and Virgil’s discourse on goods: exhaustible earthly goods versus inexhaustible spiritual ones. Wilson notes: “envy stems from a mindset of scarcity versus Mary’s mindset of abundance... able to supply where it looks like there’s not enough in the world” (Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson).

The pivotal Canto 16 (the exact midpoint of the Comedy) features Marco Lombardo’s sermon on free will: “If the present world has gone astray, the cause is in you, look at yourselves” (Marco via transcript). Wilson calls it “the clearest sermon that Dante has about what’s wrong with the world,” emphasizing that sin arises from misused free will, not fate or stars, and critiques the separation of temporal and spiritual powers.

Canto 17 concludes the wrath terrace with Virgil’s discourse on love as the root of all action (“Neither Creator nor creature was ever without love... natural or of the mind” – Virgil via transcript), which can be misdirected, deficient, or excessive. Wilson highlights the shift from reason to grace: “reason can’t do it alone... you need this other kind of intervention” (Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson). The cantos underscore Purgatorio’s hopeful pedagogy: purgation reorders love through grace, habituation, and contemplation, moving from misdirected to deficient love in preparation for the excessive attachments above. Wilson stresses the urgency: “the Purgatorio shows humanity in motion, dynamic humanity... it has the immediacy... that is an urgency to it” (Dr. Jessica Hooten Wilson).

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to the Great Books Podcast

04:06 Exploring Dante's Purgatorio

07:20 The Great Books Program at Pepperdine University

10:18 The Significance of Purgatorio

13:27 Understanding Envy in Purgatorio

16:17 Contrary Virtues: Generosity and Kindness

19:22 The Role of Sight and Blindness in Envy

22:15 Dante's Moral Lessons on Envy

25:14 Comparative Analysis with Inferno

30:33 Dante's Poetic Structure and Contrapasso

32:15 Comparative Analysis of Characters in Inferno and Purgatorio

33:54 The Role of Good and Bad Examples in Moral Education

34:14 The Shift from Temporal to Eternal Mindsets

34:20 Understanding Canto 14: The Importance of Examples

39:35 Canto 15: The Inquiry into Goods and Wrath

49:58 Canto 16: The Purging of Wrath and Examples of Virtue

51:35 Ecstatic Visions and Penitent Souls

52:19 The Tyrant's Moment of Virtue

53:28 Humanity in Purgatorio

54:38 The Role of Mary in Purgatory

56:02 Saint Stephen's Example of Forgiveness

57:12 Virgil's Limitations as a Guide

59:12 The Nature of Freedom in Purgatory

01:03:07 The Importance of Canto 16

01:04:37 Understanding Freedom in Dante's Context

01:07:32 The Role of Law and Governance

01:14:39 Self-Reflection and the State of the World

01:23:48 Exploring Wrath in Purgatory

01:30:57 Understanding the Structure of Purgatory

Keywords: Dante's Purgatorio, Cantos 13-17, spiritual growth, virtues and vices, education, great books, Dante analysis Dante's Divine Comedy, Purgatory, Virtues and Vices, Free Will, Theology, Morality, Literature, Catholic Teaching, Spiritual Journey

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Deacon Garlick and Mr. Luke Heintschel, headmaster of Coeur du Christ Academy, discuss the rest of ante-purgatory and then the first terrace--the purging of pride.

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The conversation explores the transition from Ante-Purgatory into the proper mountain of Purgatory and the first terrace dedicated to purging the sin of pride. Garlick describes this section as one of his favorites in the entire Purgatorio, praising Dante’s ability to provide a rich “liturgy” and spiritual library of resources for reshaping the soul into the beautiful image of Christ. The episode emphasizes Purgatorio as a positive map for sanctification and theosis, contrasting sharply with the Inferno’s exposure of sin’s ugliness.Guest Introduction and Classical Education Insights

Luke Heintschel shares his personal journey from evangelization and biblical theology into classical education, explaining how he came to see the liberal arts tradition—long cultivated by the Church—as the most effective means of making Catholicism relevant to contemporary young people. He describes his school’s mission of forming saints, scholars, and servants through the historic Catholic educational model. Deacon and Heintschel discuss the harmony of faith and reason, noting how reading great books alongside Scripture and theology reveals that the God who grants intellect is the same God who died on the cross. They highlight the value of using Dante’s Purgatorio in moral theology classes, where it serves not as a list of rules but as a vivid portrayal of transforming the heart’s disordered loves toward their divine end.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Ascend and Dante's Purgatorio

09:02 Understanding Purgatorio: A Map for Spiritual Growth

15:17 Dante's Intercessory Prayer and Its Significance

24:13 The Role of Beatrice and the Nature of Beauty

34:53 Dante's Political Critique and the State of Italy

43:05 The Call to Higher Patriotism

53:44 Understanding Virtue: Natural vs. Theological

59:35 The Valley of the Kings: Political Failures and Redemption

01:15:02 Dante's Heroism and Divine Grace

01:19:41 The Three Steps to Purification

01:28:10 The Role of Humility in Purgatory

01:51:27 The Purpose of Purification

01:59:24 Contrappasso: The Nature of Punishment in Purgatory

02:04:44 Examples of Pride: Lessons from the Past

02:16:26 The Beatitudes and the Path to Humility

02:23:47 Eagerness to Ascend: The Transformation of the Soul

Moral Theology and the Purpose of Purgatorio

The hosts stress that moral theology is not merely about avoiding sin but about becoming beautiful like Christ through active configuration to His image. Purgatorio offers a lifelong guide for this ascent, presenting prayers, hymns, scriptural examples, and artistic visions tailored to remedy each vice. They critique modern reductions of ethics to a “negative list” of prohibitions, arguing that Dante invites readers to pursue positive virtue and interior change.

In Canto 6, the souls in Ante-Purgatory eagerly seek Dante’s prayers, illustrating the Catholic doctrine of intercession for the dead as a participation in Christ’s merits. Virgil explains that purgation is possible through the resurrection, and the episode includes a brief catechesis on the communion of saints across the Church Militant, Penitent, and Triumphant. Beatrice is presented as an icon of divine beauty and grace, with the...

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, Dcn. Harrison Garlick and Dr. Donald Prudlo, the Warren Chair of Catholic Studies at the University of Tulsa, discuss the Ante-Purgatory, the foot of Mount Purgatory (Cantos 1-5).

Check out our guide on Dante's Purgatorio (out soon!)

Visit Dr. Jason Baxter's website and use "Ascend" in the promo code for 20% off his Purgatorio audiobook.

Thanks for the Center for Beauty and Culture at Benedictine College for their support!

The conversation with Dr. Prudlo and Deacon Garlick on Cantos 1–5 of Purgatorio opens with the dramatic shift from the despair of Inferno to the hope and refreshment of Purgatory.

In Canto 1, Dante and Virgil emerge from Hell onto the shores of Mount Purgatory at Easter dawn, where Dante humbly invokes Calliope, the Muse of epic poetry, signaling his project as “the Christian epic” (Dr. Donald Prudlo). They meet Cato the Younger, a pagan suicide saved by special grace, who embodies the four cardinal virtues and serves as Purgatory’s guardian. Prudlo emphasizes the shock: “Cato the pagan, the suicide is going to heaven. And we have got to confront that or we're going to miss so much of what Dante has to tell us here” (Dr. Donald Prudlo). The ritual of washing with dew and girding with the humble reed contrasts the broken plants of the suicides in Hell and symbolizes the beginning of true humility and ascent.

Cantos 2–5 introduce the late-repentant souls and the mountain’s structure. In Canto 2, an angelic boat ferries souls singing “In exitu Israel de Aegypto,” a psalm of liberation that Prudlo calls “a multifaceted song” evoking Exodus, baptism, and community (Dr. Donald Prudlo). Casella’s song of Dante’s own poetry enchants the group until Cato rebukes their idleness.

Cantos 3–5 explore excommunicated sinners like Manfred (“even under a curse like mine, no one's ever so lost that eternal love cannot come back, as long as hope has any sprouts of green” – Manfred via transcript) and the slothful Belacqua, who banters with Dante like old friends. Prudlo highlights the power of last-minute mercy and intercession: “Mary is the last refuge of sinners” (Dr. Donald Prudlo). The cantos teach that Purgatory is a place of communal hope, where grace reaches even the unlikely, and purification begins with humility, prayer, and rightly ordered love—setting the stage for the active ascent through the terraces.

Chapters

00:00 Introduction to Dante's Purgatorio

04:42 The Importance of Reading Purgatorio

08:02 Themes of Emancipation and Freedom

10:57 The Role of Cato in Purgatorio

13:49 Cato's Significance and Political Implications

17:00 Cato as a Precursor to Christ

19:51 Dante's Literary Techniques and Inspirations

22:56 Contrasting Ulysses and Dante

25:36 Cato's Death and Its Symbolism

28:52 The Nature of Purgatory and Salvation

31:51 Cato's Virtues and Their Relevance

34:49 The Relationship Between Cato and Christ

37:48 Conclusion and Reflections on Purgatorio

50:03 Understanding Cato's Role in Purgatorio

52:43 The Heartbreaking Choice of Cato

54:39 Rituals and Purification in Purgatory

01:00:18 The Arrival at Purgatory

01:06:34 The Significance of Water in Salvation

01:12:09 Virgil's Role and the Nature of Guidance

01:24:57 Manfred: A Case of Late Repentance

01:29:38 The Role of Intercessory Prayer in Purgatory

01:34:00 Understanding Mount Purgatory and Its Significance

01:40:15 The Character of Belacqua and Themes...