Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, we are joined by Tsh Oxenreider to discuss The Frogs by Aristophanes. The play tells the comedic story of Dionysus deciding all the new tragic poets are terrible, so he travels to Hades to bring back Euripides to help save Athen’s from her moral decay. Once in Hades, Dionysus has several adventures, which includes hosting a poetry contest between Aeschylus and Euripides to see who is the best tragedian.

Visit thegreatbookspodcast.com for our reading schedule!

Visit our Patreon page for our library of written guides to the great books!

For those who do not know Tsh Oxenreider, she is wonderful. She’s an author, blogger, and podcaster. I was on her podcast a while back to discuss acedia and love of eros. Great conversation. And today, we have a high-level, friendly chat about this The Frongs and our love of the great books in general.

So join us today for a enjoyable conversation on Aristophanes’ the Frogs.

ALSO: We start PLATO on 7.22.25! Check out our website for our reading schedule. Join us!

00:00 Introduction

01:09 Tish Oxenreider's Background and Love for the Great Books

07:07 Introduction to Aristophanes and 'The Frogs'

09:17 Appreciating Aristophanes' Comedy

18:14 The Role of Comedy in Teaching Lessons

21:59 The Humor and Juxtaposition in 'The Frogs'

27:18 Comparing Aristophanes and Euripides

30:26 The Title 'The Frogs' and its Significance

32:51 The Impact of Translation on the Reading Experience

34:29 The Power of Lightness

34:55 The Relief of Small Pleasures

35:54 Remembering the Power of Truth and Beauty

37:43 The Transformative Power of Great Works

39:00 Dionysus as the Go-Between

40:18 Poets as Teachers

In this episode, Dcn. Harrison Garlick, Chancellor and General Counsel of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Tulsa, welcomes Dr. Zena Hitz, a tutor at St. John’s College and founder of the Catherine Project, to discuss Aristophanes’ comedic masterpiece, The Clouds.

The episode dives into the play’s biting humor, its critique of Athenian society, and its timeless questions about education, piety, and moral decay. From the Thinkery’s absurd teachings to the mysterious Clouds, Dcn. Garlick and Zena unpack the play’s relevance to modern audiences, exploring themes of social ambition, familial breakdown, and the consequences of abandoning traditional values.

Check out thegreatbookspodcast.com for our reading schedule and more!

Check out our Patreon page for our library of written guides!

Key Discussion Points

• Aristophanes and The Clouds: Born around 446 BC, Aristophanes, the father of comedy, wrote The Clouds in 423 BC, nearly a decade into the Peloponnesian War. The play, a revised version not performed but circulated for reading, critiques Athenian decadence and intellectual trends through the story of Strepsiades, a debt-ridden father, and his son Phidippides. “Aristophanes in general is interested in portraying through this kind of ridiculous, sometimes slapstick, sometimes obscene comedy, certain truths” – Dr. Zena Hitz (16:47).
• The Thinkery and Education: The Thinkery, led by Socrates, teaches deceptive rhetoric and speculative inquiries, parodying new intellectual movements. It raises questions about education’s societal role. “The question about what an education is for and whether it helps the community or hurts it is a very basic fundamental question” – Dr. Zena Hitz (19:53).
• Piety and Political Stability: The play links reverence for traditional gods to social cohesion, showing how the Thinkery’s impiety destabilizes family and polis. “Belief in the gods is standing in for… sticking to the moral code that’s keeping the whole society together” – Dr. Zena Hitz (31:08).
• Socrates’ Portrayal: Socrates is depicted as a buffoonish sophist, but his role is ambiguous—possibly a stand-in for broader trends rather than the historical figure. “Strepsiades is the target… Socrates in a way is just being used to show something up about Strepsiades” – Dr. Zena Hitz (44:01).
• The Clouds’ Role: The personified Clouds, worshipped in the Thinkery, symbolize deceptive speech and align with comic poets, adding complexity. “Clouds cover things up. So there’s some kind of image for deceptive speech” – Dr. Zena Hitz (49:20).
• Socio-Economic Context: Set in a wealthy but decadent Athens, the play critiques social ambition and debt, mirroring modern struggles. “It’s in a way a very American story” – Dr. Zena Hitz (24:00).
• Moral Precedent and Human Nature: Strepsiades’ attempt to bend moral standards for gain backfires, reflecting universal human flaws. “You never want the full consequences of that one piece of wrongdoing… It never works out that way” – Dr. Zena Hitz (33:47).
• Translation Challenges: The episode highlights the importance of choosing a translation that preserves Aristophanes’ puns and humor, with recommendations for Arrowsmith and Sommerstein. “The translation on the Aristophanes actually matters a lot” – Dcn. Harrison Garlick (54:58).

About Our Guest

Dr. Zena Hitz is a tutor at St. John’s College and the founder and president of the Catherine Project, a nonprofit offering free, open-access reading groups and tutorials on great...

Today on Ascend: The Great Books Podcast, we plunge into the second part of Euripides’ The Bacchae—a harrowing yet gripping Greek tragedy that leads us deeper into the mystery of Dionysian eros.

We’ll observe the tragic descent of King Pentheus, the Bacchae as a parasite upon society, and the haunting themes of eros, justice, and the question of piety under an evil god.

Check out thegreatbookspodcast.com for our reading SCHEDULE.

Check out our Patreon page for our 25 Q&A GUIDE to the Bacchae.

From the guide:

Why should you read The Bacchae?

The Bacchae challenges readers to explore religion, erotics, piety, cosmic order, and human nature in a controversial and unsettling landscape. Euripides’ intent is not clear; thus, the reader is left to interpret a drama that seems to test longstanding Greek concepts, like piety and the gods.

Dr. Grabowski acknowledges the play as an integral part of the “great conversation” in the Western canon, and Dcn. Garlick agrees by highlighting the play as an important antecedent to Plato’s Euthyphro and Symposium. Though the work includes disturbing imagery, it is within those images that Euripides is wrestling with erotics, piety, and the cosmos. Somewhat shockingly, the play presents several parallels to Jesus Christ and invites the reader into challenging comparisons. Overall, The Bacchae stands as an important—though controversial—work in exploring the nature of man and his relation to the divine.

How is Agave’s death indicative of the destructive eros of Dionysus?

The disordered eros of the Dionysian cult manifests as an anti-logos mania that is corrosive to the family and the natural political order. It brings societal instability. Dcn. Garlick explains that this Dionysian eros, unlike Plato’s ordered ascent through the ladder of love in the Symposium, is a “disordered erotics” that “spirals down to bestial releases.” It is notable that the first group affected by the Dionysian cult are women, and the first act of these crazed women is to abandon their husbands and children—and then run wild in the woods nursing animals and engaging in orgies. Euripides presents a scene of perversion, a perverted femininity and motherhood. The Bacchae also adopt masculine traits, like strength, a desire to hunt, and acts of violence—like tearing animals apart with their bare hands. Dr. Grabowski observes this all leads to the destruction of the polis, as “if you pervert women… there will be no children… no future generations, and… no polis.” The women’s rejection of domestic roles, driven by Dionysus’ “erotic mania,” fractures the social fabric, leading to a “complete and utter collapse… of a polis.”

The climax of this societal destruction is Agave’s horrific act of killing her son, Pentheus, which Dcn. Garlick describes as the “zenith of this Dionysian madness,” epitomizing the cult’s perversion of natural relationships. Under Dionysus’ influence, Agave, “foaming at the mouth and her crazed eyes rolling with frenzy,” dismembers Pentheus, unaware he is her son until Cadmus restores her sanity. Dr. Grabowski calls this “sadistic” and “hideously perverse,” arguing it ensures “no polis… can survive if the Dionysian cult wins.” The murder of Thebes’ king by...