In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh Hugo and John Clark continue their multi-part series on identity shifts in leadership. Building on last week’s focus on how stepping into management reshapes relationships, today’s conversation zeroes in on one of the most critical dynamics for any middle manager: your relationship with your own manager.

Josh and John explore what makes this relationship healthy and productive, starting with the foundation of trust and moving into practical elements like:

• High Support + High Challenge: Creating a liberating environment through balanced accountability and encouragement.

• Intentional Two-Way Communication: Ensuring not just that information is transmitted, but also truly received and understood.

• Autonomy + Accountability: Striking the right balance between independence and responsibility to your boss.

• Mutual Belief: Not just expecting your manager to believe in you, but actively showing belief in them.

• Managing Up: Bringing forward the realities of your team so your manager has the visibility needed to lead effectively.

They also highlight common pitfalls that can derail this relationship—like unclear communication systems, falling into a “what have you done for me lately” mindset, or passively waiting to be developed—and offer strategies to avoid them.

The episode closes with practical reflection tools for listeners:

1. Conduct a two-way communication audit to identify and close gaps.

2. Apply the Red-Yellow-Green framework to your current projects to clarify decision-making authority and opportunities for growth in autonomy.

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John dive into one of the most significant transitions leaders face: the shift in identity that comes with moving into management. Building on last week’s discussion around vision and internalization, they explore how stepping into leadership changes relationships with yourself, your peers, and your work.

The conversation covers four key dynamics:

• The weight of authority – how new leaders experience both the responsibility and temptations of positional power.

• Stress and tendencies – why under pressure, managers often revert to old habits, and how intentional development can prevent missteps.

• “TIDKWIDT” (The I Don’t Know What I Did Today challenge) – the common struggle of defining success when the work shifts from doing tasks to guiding people.

• Vertical shifts in relationships – the reality that becoming “the manager” alters how peers and teams perceive and engage with you.

Josh and John offer practical tools to navigate these changes, including the “Leader Mirror” (a framework for reflecting on reactivity, intentionality, and consistency) and the importance of building a trusted circle to provide honest feedback. They also invite listeners to share their own experiences with identity shifts in leadership, setting up future episodes on relationships with managers and direct reports.

As always, the episode blends lived experience with practical strategies, making space for the tension of leadership while equipping mid-level leaders to grow with awareness and purpose.

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John explore the role of vision in leadership, especially for middle managers who often inherit rather than create vision. They emphasize the importance of fully internalizing and integrating vision into daily practices, even when you are already aligned.

The conversation dives into the tension that arises when managers don’t fully agree with a vision. Josh shares a framework for self-reflection through the lens of self-preservation behaviors: asking What am I afraid of losing? What am I trying to hide? What am I trying to prove? John introduces the principle of “disagree and commit,” highlighting how leaders can create space for healthy debate, then unite in full commitment once a decision is made.

The episode closes with four practical takeaways for managers:

1. Internalize your organization’s vision so you can teach it.

2. Integrate vision into daily conversations and priorities.

3. Reflect on self-preservation tendencies that may cause resistance.

4. Disagree and commit to build trust, alignment, and follow-through.

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, John and Josh explore what it means to lead from the middle—especially when the word manager often carries a negative connotation. After sharing the backstory of the podcast’s rebrand (and a trademark dispute that nudged them into “Leadership Limbo”), they dive into how leaders can reclaim management as a powerful and positive form of leadership.

Drawing from Gallup’s First, Break All the Rules, they unpack the metaphor of the manager as a catalyst—someone who accelerates growth by connecting people’s talents to organizational goals. They challenge leaders to:

• Reframe “manager” not as a lesser version of leadership, but as a distinct and powerful form of it. Too often, the term carries negative baggage, but John and Josh argue that great management is an active, catalytic force that turns vision into reality.

• Prioritize knowing people’s strengths rather than over-focusing on weaknesses.

• Distinguish between managing versus doing, resisting the urge to “just do it yourself” or create clones of your own style.

The conversation is both practical and reflective, with reminders that turnover is costly, management is active, and leaders must be intentional about setting their teams up to thrive.

The episode closes with a reflection challenge: Identify 2–3 people on your team, name their strengths without condition, and ask yourself whether their current work fully leverages those strengths in service of your organization’s goals.

Because in the end, being a manager isn’t about being stuck in limbo—it’s about catalyzing people and purpose.

You can find copies of First, Break All of the Rules here on Amazon or wherever else you purchase your books!

Episode Summary – Leadership Limbo

In this episode of Leadership Limbo, Josh and John dig into the realities of “the middle” in leadership—focusing especially on middle management. They frame leadership through three paradigms: being in the middle of the org chart, navigating career transitions, and balancing the internal work of leading yourself while leading others.

The conversation highlights the challenges and opportunities of middle management, from building credibility and shifting relationships, to getting results through others without falling into micromanagement. They also explore the tension of carrying out someone else’s vision, managing up while still supporting your team, and the identity shifts that come with moving into leadership roles.

The hosts emphasize that management and leadership are not separate—managers must lead, and when done well, the role can be life-giving. They leave listeners with a reflective “3-2-1” exercise:

• 3 leadership successes,

• 2 current opportunities/challenges,

• 1 action step for next week.

This episode offers practical insights, thought-provoking questions, and a reminder that leadership is about unlocking the potential of others while navigating the tensions of the in-between

In our very first episode, hosts Josh Hugo and John Clark unpack the concept of Leadership Limbo —leading from the “in-betwixt and in-between” spaces where most leadership actually happens. We explore why leadership from the middle matters, what “limbo” really means, and how to navigate the tensions of being responsible without full authority.

Whether you’re an emerging leader, a middle manager, or a senior leader working to better support your team, this episode blends self-awareness, purpose-driven leadership, and practical tools to help you lead with clarity and influence. We share our personal journeys, reflect on lessons learned, and set the stage for the conversations and strategies to come.

Key topics in this episode:

• Defining “limbo” and the in-betwixt and in-between of leadership

• Why leadership in the middle is different—and critical

• How influence matters more than authority

• Balancing self-reflection with actionable leadership strategies

If you’ve ever felt caught between managing up and leading down, or you’re looking for ways to lead more effectively from where you are, this is where your journey starts.