Kate didn't plan to measure their burnout by the number of bags of pink-and-purple Mother's animal cookies consumed at their desk…but here we are. Kim's clue was a rotating cycle of stomach aches and "maybe these aren't panic attacks but the room is definitely spinning." And our guest, Norlander Wilson, talks about showing up to work without showering or brushing her teeth for days because she literally couldn't.

This one is about burnout at work — not the "I need a weekend off" kind, but the kind that rewires your nervous system and convinces you you're the problem.

About our guest:
Norlander Wilson is an experimental psychologist and an orbit disruptor by calling. She is the founder and CEO of Becoma, an operational strategy firm that helps leaders, creatives, and organizations move from survival mode into clearer systems and healthier energy. Through her work, Norlander blends psychology, strategy, and system design to challenge the patterns that keep people stuck and to create ways of working that don't require self-sacrifice. She's also the host of the podcast "She Don't Work Like That, No More," where she unpacks wounded leadership patterns and reimagines what it means to build, lead, and live without breaking yourself in the process.

The theme today: burnout at work, and how project managers — the people everyone counts on — get trapped in it.

Norlander doesn't sugarcoat it:
"Burnout is a collective conversation, especially in an organization."

She calls out how burnout starts at the top. If leadership pushes 100 hours, teams assume they should push 150. If leaders are exhausted, their teams are exhausted.

Burnout isn't a personal failing; it's a system failure — and PMs often absorb the blast radius.

Kate opens up about their 2024 breakdown:
crying daily, losing appetite except for cookies, medical leave, and the creeping belief that if they just tried harder, they could fix everything. Kim shares his own burnout and the helpless feeling of watching teammates slide into it — seeing that "day-five-I-haven't-showered look" on Zoom and wanting to save them.

And then there's the half-million-dollar moment.

Kate negotiated nearly $500,000/year in compensation and turned it down because walking into the building made them feel sick. Not metaphorically — physically.
"I'm not getting on that wheel unless I want to."

Norlander validates it:
"If it's profound burnout and everything triggers you at that job, yes, it's time to leave."

She gives language PMs desperately need:

• Capacity check-ins, not productivity interrogations

• Systems that hold boundaries so you don't have to

• Stop parenting grown adults at work — "You are not an emotional container."

• Let people fail so they learn the consequence, not you

Kim connects it to the "mouse on the wheel" experiment — the difference between choosing to run and being forced to run. The stress chemicals — literally — are not the same.

Norlander's tools for burnout prevention and burnout recovery:

• Audit your systems quarterly

• Build boundaries into SOPs

• Protect scheduled joy like you protect deadlines

• Delegate to the system, not your nervous system

Kate shares how protecting Tuesday riding lessons became non-negotiable. Not because horseback riding is magic (although…it kind of is), but because no one else will protect your time but you.

Norlander's toast at the end is the line we're all putting on sticky notes:
"When you do find your boundary… don't compromise it for anyone."

If burnout at work is starting to feel familiar — if you're living on cookies, caffeine, and dread — pull up a chair. You're not lazy. You're not failing. The system is failing you.

And if you're tired of carrying the emotional labor for your entire project team, come get some backup and community. Join us at: https://pmhappyhour.com/membership
© Project Management Happy Hour

Ever freeze up in a tough project conversation? Or worse—blow it up? In this episode of Project Management Happy Hour, Kim and Kate revisit their all-time favorite: Crucial Conversations by the team at VitalSmarts (now Crucial Learning). This book completely changed how they lead, negotiate, and manage conflict. Learn how to spot when a conversation turns "crucial," stay in dialogue instead of defensiveness, and use "don't-do statements" and "start with heart" to navigate conflict like a pro.

We're not sponsored—just obsessed. If you lead projects or people, this book will change your life.

🍸 Pull up a stool at the bar—here's what we're talking about this round: 🍸

Every project manager has been there: a stakeholder meltdown, a team standoff, or that one sponsor meeting where your pulse hits 200. The question is—what do you do when the conversation turns crucial?

In this PM Happy Hour throwback, Kate and Kim revisit one of their most popular and enduring episodes—based on the book Crucial Conversations: Tools for Talking When Stakes Are High by the VitalSmarts team (now Crucial Learning). They aren't paid to say this—but this book changed their lives and careers.

Seventeen years after Kate's colleague first handed her this book, they still call it "the single most important leadership book for project managers." Forget the PMBOK—start here if you want to build trust, executive presence, and influence.

You'll learn how to:

• Recognize when a conversation becomes crucial: differing opinions, high stakes, and strong emotions.

• Avoid the "fool's choice"—the false belief that you must choose between honesty and peace.

• Create a shared pool of meaning, so everyone's ideas and emotions contribute to better decisions.

• Use "Start With Heart" to keep your cool and focus on what you really want—for yourself, others, and the relationship.

• Apply "Don't-Do Statements" to set boundaries, de-escalate tension, and build empathy.

From team conflicts to sponsor negotiations, this episode gives you practical, human ways to talk about hard things—and actually make things better. Kim and Kate share real-world examples from project meetings, resource battles, and even personal life to show how dialogue beats defensiveness every time.

And they're not just quoting theory. Crucial Conversations is built on decades of behavioral research and communication psychology—and it's as relevant today as ever. Whether you manage projects, programs, or entire teams, mastering these techniques can level up your leadership, reduce drama, and get you promoted faster.

📚 Get the Book:
Crucial Conversations: Tools for Talking When Stakes Are High
by Kerry Patterson, Joseph Grenny, Ron McMillan, and Al Switzler
Available anywhere books are sold (we're not sponsored—we just love it).

JOIN THE HAPPY HOUR!
Want even more? Join us at pmhappyhour.com/membership to get PDUsfor episodes, downloadable templates, access to our PM community, and 1:1 time with Kim and Kate.

Are you defining project success the wrong way? Most project managers are — at least according to PMI's Dave Garrett.

Project Management Happy Hour hosts Kim Essendrup and Kate Anderson sit down with Dave — Senior Advisor at the Project Management Institute (PMI) and co-founder of ProjectManagement.com — for a frank and real conversation about PMI's new definition of project success to talk about how realistic it is, and what it means for the future of our profession.

For decades, project success was judged by the "iron triangle" — scope, schedule, and budget. But PMI has officially redefined it:

"A successful project is one that delivers value worth the effort and expense."

Dave explains how this updated definition shifts the focus from checking boxes to delivering outcomes that truly matter — and how every PM can start measuring success through value creation instead of rigid constraints.

The discussion digs into PMI's new M.O.R.E. framework — a practical mindset for modern project leaders:

• M – Manage Perceptions: Build trust and alignment with stakeholders.

• O – Own Success: Don't just deliver; ensure the value lands.

• R – Relentlessly Reassess: Constantly re-evaluate priorities and adapt to change.

• E – Expand Perspective: See the bigger picture across business strategy, customers, and society.

Dave also shares lessons from his early startup days building Gantthead.com, the dot-com crash, and how those lessons apply in today's AI-driven project world. You'll hear how the rise of automation is making project management more human, pushing PMs to lead through empathy, influence, and strategic insight rather than process checklists.

If you've ever struggled with the question, "Was my project really a success?" this episode will give you a fresh, empowering way to answer it.

Key Takeaways

• PMI's official definition of project success now centers on value, not just time, cost, and scope.

• The M.O.R.E. mindset helps PMs evolve beyond administrators into strategic leaders.

• AI will augment, not replace, project managers — freeing them to focus on human connection and business impact.

• "Success" is contextual: a delayed project that delivers exceptional value can still be a win.

Guest Links

• Learn more about PMI's Project Success initiative: pmi.org/projectsuccess

• Connect with Dave Garrett on LinkedIn

• Explore PMI's AI resources: pmi.org/ai

Want even more? Join us at pmhappyhour.com/membership to get PDU certificates for episodes, downloadable templates, access to our PM community, and 1:1 time with Kim and Kate.

Ever been dropped into a troubled project that's already gone off the rails? Welcome to life as "The Wolf." Inspired by the fixer from Pulp Fiction, Kim and Kate revisit one of our most popular episodes—now a PMI Global talk! —and break down how to step in, take charge, and rescue a broken project without losing your cool.

Kim shares his new 3-part formula for project recovery:

• People first – You aren't just fixing a plan, you're fixing an organization.

• Calm – Calm is contagious, and you can only control yourself.

• Clarity & Courage – Seek out misalignment, bring truth to light, and have the guts to ask, "Does this project still make sense?"

Of course, Kate keeps Kim honest, adding the perspective (and laughs) that make the tough lessons go down easy.

If you've ever been handed a project that feels unsalvageable, this episode is your playbook.

👉 Want even more? Join us at pmhappyhour.com/membership to get PDU certificates for episodes, downloadable templates, access to our PM community, and 1:1 time with Kim and Kate.

Why bother with risk management when you can just deal with problems as they happen? In this episode, Kim and Kate dig into the heart of that question—and the answer might just save your future self a world of pain.

You'll hear:

• Hard-hitting stats: 1 in 6 projects go 200% over budget (Harvard Business Review), 17% of major IT projects threaten company survival (McKinsey), and why 69% of projects don't succeed.

• Firefighting vs. fire prevention: why controlled burns (boring, thankless prep) prevent disasters while the "heroes" just put out fires.

• ROI of risk management: the surprising 20:1 return on time spent planning versus cleaning up issues later.

• Language hacks: how swapping "risks" for "obstacles" (credit to Dr. Josh Ramirez) can get your team—and executives—on board.

• Practical techniques: from whiteboarding failure points to slicing your project into risk categories, simple ways to start risk management without drowning in templates.

Whether you're a seasoned PM or just tired of project disasters, this episode shows why risk management isn't about doom and gloom—it's about giving future you a fighting chance.

JOIN THE HAPPY HOUR!

Get access to all podcasts, PDU certificates, bonus content, exclusive member Q&A webinars and more from our membership! https://pmhappyhour.com/membership

Please. Let it end. PLEASE!
A defining characteristic of a project is that it ends. Finally. Just finish it, right? If it were only that easy!

In another Top Shelf Replay, Kate and Kim revisit one of their classic past episodes, "The Closer." We play highlights from the original Closer episode as they talk about how to build up to a crisp conclusion to your project, making it a win for everyone. Then, Kate and Kim talk through their revised perspectives and learnings since the original airing of the Closer - and some of their hard learned lessons since then!

JOIN THE HAPPY HOUR!

Get access to all podcasts, PDU certificates, bonus content, exclusive member Q&A webinars and more from our membership! https://pmhappyhour.com/membership

Projects aren't remembered for how they started—they're remembered for how they ended. In this PM Happy Hour episode, Kim Essendrup and Kate Anderson unpack why finishing strong is critical to your reputation and your project's legacy.

Drawing on real project stories, they explore the axiom that people will remember your project the way it ended—and two key corollaries every project manager needs to know:

• Corollary 1: People naturally forget past wins and focus on the most recent problems.

• Corollary 2: People will redefine success to fit the outcome—if it gives them a win.

You'll learn practical practices to keep your stakeholders focused on value, even when things get bumpy, including:

• How to keep your team and sponsors aligned on the value proposition

• Why PMI has redefined project success around value delivered (not just the triple constraints)

• How to reframe challenges as wins without whitewashing reality

• Why a strong finish can redeem a rocky project—and a weak finish can ruin a good one

If you've ever had a project limp across the finish line, this episode will give you tools to finish strong and leave stakeholders with the story you want them to remember.

JOIN THE HAPPY HOUR!

Get access to all podcasts, PDU certificates, bonus content, exclusive member Q&A webinars and more from our membership! https://pmhappyhour.com/membership

Ah, executives. They fund your project, cheer you on, and sometimes… ask for things that make you want to slam your head into your Gantt chart.

Like:

• "The project's almost done—let's change everything!"

• "I read about [X] in CIO Magazine—can we bolt that on?"

• "Why are we doing it this way? Let's redo it completely differently… and badly."
  
  

In this Top Shelf Replay, we revisit the best parts of this classic episode, then Kate & Kim reflect on what they've learned since—especially now that they're the execs making the asks (hopefully less stupidly).

Oh, and yes—this is the episode where we try to talk Darth Vader out of building an infinity pool on the Death Star.

JOIN THE HAPPY HOUR!

Get access to all podcasts, PDU certificates, bonus content, exclusive member Q&A webinars and more from our membership! https://pmhappyhour.com/membership