Episodes

  • Ep 074: De-Sizing the Church (pt 6): Reframing Ministry Success to Reach the Misfits and the Marginalized, with Dave Gibbons

    Ep 074: De-Sizing the Church (pt 6): Reframing Ministry Success to Reach the Misfits and the Marginalized, with Dave Gibbons
    May 10 2024
    What happens when a pastor sets out, not to minister to people who look like him, but to purposely reach people who look as different from his current congregation as possible? That’s what Dave Gibbons, the founding pastor of Newsong Church in Orange County, CA did. In this episode, Karl Vaters talks with him about the planting of Newsong, the challenges Dave faced when he decided to guide them to look more like the diverse county they were ministering in. Dave talks honestly and vulnerably about how the Holy Spirit challenged him to reach out to the misfits and the marginalized. This challenged him and the church in huge ways, including a massive drop in attendance that he had to find his way through emotionally, financially, and spiritually. Karl's new book, De-Sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next is now available wherever you buy books, either electronically or in print. If you’ve read the book and you’d like Karl to speak to your group about the issues he raises in it, reach out at KarlVaters.com/contactme. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
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    40 mins
  • Ep 073: De-Sizing the Church (pt 5): Forming a Goodness Culture In the Local Church, with Scot McKnight

    Ep 073: De-Sizing the Church (pt 5): Forming a Goodness Culture In the Local Church, with Scot McKnight
    May 2 2024
    Meritocracy has become embedded in the American church. In this conversation, Karl Vaters talks with Scot McKnight about why this is dangerous, how to notice the warning signs of a toxic church culture, the problems with being or following a narcissistic leader, and more. Scot McKnight is the co-author (with Laura Barringer) of A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing. Karl's new book, De-Sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next is now available wherever you buy books, either electronically or in print. If you’ve read the book and you’d like Karl to speak to your group about the issues he raises in it, reach out at KarlVaters.com/contactme. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
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    42 mins
  • Ep 072: De-Sizing the Church (pt 4): Unintended Consequences of the Church Growth Movement, with Bob Smietana

    Ep 072: De-Sizing the Church (pt 4): Unintended Consequences of the Church Growth Movement, with Bob Smietana
    Apr 25 2024
    Karl Vaters interviews Bob Smietana, a columnist for Religion News Service, and the author of Reorganized Religion: The Reshaping of the American Church and Why it Matters. Bob and Karl discuss some of unintended consequences of the Church Growth Movement from Bob's unique vantage point. They also delve into the dangers of bigness and what we can do about it. Then they discuss Smietana’s fascinating article, “There’s a Reason Every Hit Worship Song Sounds the Same,” and what it says about the current church culture. Links Reorganized Religion: The Reshaping of the American Church and Why it Matters Religion News Service There’s a Reason Every Hit Worship Song Sounds the Same Karl's new book, De-Sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next is now available wherever you buy books, either electronically or in print. If you’ve read the book and you’d like me to speak to your group about the issues I raise in it, reach out to me at KarlVaters.com/contactme. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
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    46 mins
  • Ep 071: De-Sizing the Church (pt 3): What Eugene Peterson Is Still Teaching Us About Pastoral Ministry, with Winn Collier

    Ep 071: De-Sizing the Church (pt 3): What Eugene Peterson Is Still Teaching Us About Pastoral Ministry, with Winn Collier
    Apr 18 2024
    If small church pastors have a modern patron saint, Eugene Peterson might be it. In this episode, Karl Vaters talks with Peterson’s biographer, Winn Collier about the places where Winn’s book, A Burning in My Bones: The Authorized Biography of Eugene H. Peterson, Translator of The Message, overlaps with Karl's book, De-sizing the Church. They talk about how Winn was entrusted to write Peterson’s authorized bio, why people (especially pastors) are still so fascinated by Peterson’s writings, his life, and the way he pastored. Then they narrow in on how Peterson accurately, but fairly critiqued the church growth movement and our obsession with bigness. Finally, they address several parts of Peterson’s life and ministry that didn’t fit into De-sizing the Church, including: How Peterson’s life connected with people even deeper than his writings did The importance of pastoral presence How Peterson pushed back against our size obsession and the institutionalism of a business-centered approach to church growth The importance of those inefficient hours in a pastor’s life and schedule And more Links: A Burning in My Bones: The Authorized Biography of Eugene H. Peterson, Translator of The Message Working the Angles: The Shape of Pastoral Integrity Karl's new book, De-sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next, is now available wherever you buy books, either electronically or in print. If you’ve read the book and you’d like Karl to speak to your group about the issues he raises in it, reach out at KarlVaters.com/Contact Me. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
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    40 mins
  • Ep 070: De-Sizing the Church (pt 2): Why Christian Celebrity Culture Guarantees Moral Failure, with Katelyn Beaty

    Ep 070: De-Sizing the Church (pt 2): Why Christian Celebrity Culture Guarantees Moral Failure, with Katelyn Beaty
    Apr 11 2024
    One of the biggest dangers of our obsession with church size is the rise of the Christian celebrity culture. Katelyn Beaty is the author of Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the Church. Katelyn defines celebrity as “social power without proximity.” In this conversation, Karl Vaters talks with Katelyn about what that means, why it’s a problem, and why we in the church are so susceptible to the lure of celebrity. There’s also great hope for those who have been led astray by Christian celebrity culture, whether you’re the one following a celebrity, or if you’re the one desiring to be followed. Links: Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the Church Karl's new book, De-sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next, is now available wherever you buy books, either electronically or in print. If you’ve read the book and you’d like Karl to speak to your group about the issues he raises in it, reach out at KarlVaters.com/Contact Me. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
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    43 mins
  • Ep 069: De-Sizing the Church (pt 1): How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next, with Karl Vaters

    Ep 069: De-Sizing the Church (pt 1): How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next, with Karl Vaters
    Apr 4 2024
    We have an unhealthy relationship with bigness in the church. Especially in the American church. And it’s killing us. The rate of church closures, departing members, and pastoral burnout is growing exponentially. This is the first episode of a series of podcasts based on Karl Vaters’ new book, De-Sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next. Karl talks about how we became so obsessed with bigness in the church, why it’s dangerous, and what we can do to change course. Look for upcoming De-sizing the Church episodes in which Karl interviews Katelyn Beaty, Scot McKnight, Winn Collier, and more. Karl's new book, De-sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next, is now available wherever you buy books, either electronically or in print. If you’ve read the book and you’d like Karl to speak to your group about the issues he raises in it, reach out at KarlVaters.com/Contact Me. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
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    38 mins
  • Ep 068: The Small Church Worship Advantage, with Teresa Stewart

    Ep 068: The Small Church Worship Advantage, with Teresa Stewart
    Mar 21 2024
    Have you ever felt like your church is “less than” because you don’t have a worship experience with the talented musicians you’ve seen in larger churches? According to Teresa Stewart, not only is that not needed for an excellent worship experience, but the small church actually has advantages that are not always available to our big-church friends. In this conversation, Karl Vaters talks with Teresa Stewart about some of those advantages, including: The Happy Birthday Effect Seeing and adjusting our aesthetic cues Stone Soup planning The value of small-church symbols How to ask better questions about our worship experience And so much more Teresa Stewart is the author of The Small Church Advantage: Seven Powerful Worship Practices that Work Best in Small Settings. Teresa’s approach is simple, practical, and applicable in most small-church settings. She challenges some of the ways we’ve thought about small-church worship, offers viable alternatives, then gives some wonderful step-by-step advice about how to curate worship to be more participatory without letting chaos reign. Links from this Episode: https://www.worshipnerds.com/ Teresa@smallchurch.org Bonus Chat The Role of Conversation in Small-Church Worship Karl Vaters talks with Teresa Stewart about conversation can be incorporated into the small-church experience. She encourages us to start slow and small. And she helps us curate the experience so it doesn't become a free-for-all. As Teresa wrote in her book, “Conversation in worship is not an anything-goes pursuit. It should serve and deepen the worship. Begin by curating worship in one element of your usual order.” On a very practical level, Teresa talks about the three levels of questions and conversation. Knowing these levels will help you approach this with wisdom and patience, allowing people to participate while maintaining a sense of direction. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
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    51 mins
  • Ep 067: Beyond Burnout: Growing a Healthy Soul, with Ian Borkent

    Ep 067: Beyond Burnout: Growing a Healthy Soul, with Ian Borkent
    Mar 7 2024
    Ian Borkent is a pastor in the Netherlands who walked through a season of ministry burnout and now helps pastors address this issue in their own lives through the ministry of Grow a Healthy Soul. In this episode we’ll talk about the causes of pastoral burnout, how to avoid it, and how to recruit church members to the task of helping pastors by employing the five-fold ministry gifts. Also, I’ll be sharing some of content of my new book, De-Sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next (coming April 2, 2024) and how our obsession with bigness is a major contributing factor to pastoral burnout, church scandals, and more. Links From This Episode Alan Hirsch APEST test The Church as Movement (book) Grow a Healthy Soul Bonus Chat (Available to Patreon supporters and newsletter subscribers on our YouTube channel) Helping Your Pastor Lead Beyond Burnout Karl Vaters talks with Ian Borkent about how congregation members have a calling to help their pastor, including what pastors can do to let congregation members know they need their help. They also talk about Bunjee Cord Leadership, plus the importance of simply asking for help, and working through the discomfort of not doing everything. Link: How to Lead and Still Have a Life: The 8 Principles of Less is More Leadership, by H. Dale Burke Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
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    34 mins