Marketers have long optimised for visibility and memory, but in our metric-focused industry, are we measuring what really matters?

In this episode of the Smarter Marketer Podcast, host James Lawrence speaks with Dr. Karen Nelson-Field, Founder of Amplified, about why attention is the real currency of modern advertising and how to measure it effectively. From the myth of virality to the flaws in CPMs, Karen shares what years of research reveal about how people truly engage with ads, and what marketers need to do next to stay ahead.

• Dr. Karen’s journey: from academic researcher to founder, shaping the global conversation on attention measurement
• Why traditional metrics like reach, impressions and engagement fail to capture real ad effectiveness
• How attention measurement works and why it’s revolutionising media planning and buying
• The difference between active, passive and non-attention, and how they impact ROI
• Why CPM should stand for “Cost per Meaningless Thousand”
• How creative and media need to work together for attention to truly convert
• Why cheaper ad formats often deliver worse ROI than expected
• The role of AI and synthetic audiences in scaling attention measurement
• The future: the unification of creative and media through AI-driven tools

Additional resource: The Eye-Watering Cost of Dull Media

Dr. Karen Nelson-Field is a globally recognised researcher and entrepreneur reshaping how marketers think about effectiveness. As the Founder and CEO of Amplified, she leads pioneering work in attention measurement across platforms and formats. A former academic turned industry innovator, Karen’s research has influenced how the world’s biggest brands evaluate advertising performance.

• James Lawrence LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameslawrenceoz/
• Smarter Marketer Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/smarter-marketer-podcast
• Rocket Agency Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/
• Rocket Agency LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/rocket-agency-pty-ltd/

• Hardcover: https://amzn.to/30O63kg
• Kindle: https://amzn.to/2ZqfCWm

This is the definitive podcast for Australian marketers. Join Rocket Agency Co-Founder and best-selling author, James Lawrence in conversation with marketers, leaders, and thinkers about what it takes to be a smarter and more successful marketer.

As 2025 comes to a close, the conversation around in-housing has never been more confusing. With rising pressures on budgets and the disruption caused by AI, businesses are being forced to rethink what the right marketing structure might look like for them.

In this episode of the Smarter Marketer Podcast, Host James Lawrence speaks with Darren Woolley, Founder and Global CEO of Australia’s leading marketing management consultancy TrinityP3. Together they unpack the myths surrounding in-housing and outsourcing, and what research really says about cost, culture, productivity and creativity.

• Why “in-housing vs. agency” is the wrong question to ask and what the right balance looks like
• The hidden costs that make many in-house teams more expensive than expected
• How in-house agencies can fall into creative myopia and how to bring external stimulus back in
• Why AI is more than just efficiency: accountability, smarter decision-making, strategic advantage and more
• The three challenges keeping marketers up at night: tighter budgets, proving ROI and keeping pace with change
• How agencies remain indispensable by offering perspective and speed that internal teams can’t easily replicate

Darren Woolley is considered a thought leader on all aspects of marketing management - a problem solver, negotiator, mentor, Founder & Global CEO of TrinityP3, industry commentator, podcaster and author. He is also an ex-chair of the Australian Marketing Institute, an ex-president of the Melbourne Advertising and Design Club, ex-medical scientist and ex-creative director.

You can follow Darren on LinkedIn.

• James Lawrence LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameslawrenceoz/
• Smarter Marketer Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/smarter-marketer-podcast
• Rocket Agency Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/
• Rocket Agency LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/rocket-agency-pty-ltd/

• Hardcover: https://amzn.to/30O63kg
• Kindle: https://amzn.to/2ZqfCWm

This is the definitive podcast for Australian marketers. Join Rocket Agency Co-Founder and best-selling author, James Lawrence in conversation with marketers, leaders, and thinkers about what it takes to be a smarter and more successful marketer.

Once thought of as a “traditional” channel, outdoor has once again become one of the most creative and technology-integrated mediums in modern marketing. As audiences move faster and attention gets harder to hold, out-of-home (OOH) continues to prove its staying power.

In this episode, James Lawrence sits down with Josh Gurgiel, Head of Creative at POLY (oOh!media’s content and innovation hub), to unpack how Australia’s largest OOH network is evolving, from the rise of digital formats and AI-driven creative to why simplicity and emotion still sit at the heart of every great campaign.

• Why OOH remains one of the most powerful full-funnel channels, and will continue to be
• The creative rules that separate great outdoor work from visual clutter
• How motion and real-time creative are reshaping outdoor storytelling
• Why consistency and context, not constant reinvention, drive long-term brand resonance
• How brands like Specsavers, McDonald’s and Bankwest are redefining what ‘public space art’ can be
• Why static and digital work best together, and what that means for campaign planning in 2026
• A look ahead: from immersive brand experiences to outdoor as cultural content

Josh Gurgiel is the Head of Creative at POLY, the content and creative innovation hub within oOh!media. With a career spanning creative direction, brand strategy and production, Josh leads the team shaping the next era of OOH innovation. His work with leading Australian and global brands continues to push the boundaries of how creativity, technology and data intersect in public space.

• James Lawrence LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameslawrenceoz/
• Smarter Marketer Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/smarter-marketer-podcast
• Rocket Agency Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/
• Rocket Agency LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/rocket-agency-pty-ltd/

• Hardcover: https://amzn.to/30O63kg
• Kindle: https://amzn.to/2ZqfCWm

This is the definitive podcast for Australian marketers. Join Rocket Agency Co-Founder and best-selling author, James Lawrence in conversation with marketers, leaders, and thinkers about what it takes to be a smarter and more successful marketer.

What does it really mean to lead marketing in 2025? In this episode of the Smarter Marketer Podcast, Host James Lawrence sits down with executive brand strategist Emma Logan to unpack the realities facing modern marketing leaders, from blurred job boundaries and rising stakeholder expectations to the personal toll of visibility and performance.

Emma shares why every senior marketer already has an “executive brand”, whether they’ve defined it or not, and how failing to own that narrative means letting others do it for you. Together, she and James explore what authentic leadership looks like in a post-pandemic world, how to navigate complexity without burning out, why connection and energy management are not just nice-to-haves and more.

• Emma’s journey - The story behind The Emma Logan Project
• Why every CMO needs an intentional executive brand and what happens if you don’t define it
• The growing complexity of the marketing role: from AI and capability gaps to shifting cultural expectations
• How trust, transparency and delivery underpin influence at the C-suite and board level
• Networking as a leadership superpower: the ROI of connection and community
• Why energy, recovery and self-awareness are becoming critical to sustainable leadership

Emma Logan has spent more than 15 years working across marketing and media in New Zealand, London and Australia, spanning client-side, agency, publisher and not-for-profit roles. She’s partnered with numerous leading brands and marketing talent, bringing a rare 360-degree perspective to the challenges facing today’s leaders.

Through The Emma Logan Project, she now runs a “marketer-focused consultancy,” helping CMOs and senior marketing leaders define who they are and how to amplify their impact across their teams and the wider industry.

• James Lawrence LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameslawrenceoz/
• Smarter Marketer Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/smarter-marketer-podcast
• Rocket Agency Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/
• Rocket Agency LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/rocket-agency-pty-ltd/

• Hardcover: https://amzn.to/30O63kg
• Kindle: https://amzn.to/2ZqfCWm

This is the definitive podcast for Australian marketers. Join Rocket Agency Co-Founder and best-selling author, James Lawrence in conversation with marketers, leaders, and thinkers about what it takes to be a smarter and more successful marketer.

For decades the agency-client relationship has worked on a transactional view of marketing and creative services. Agencies gave away their best thinking upfront, clients judged on surface-level ideas and both sides accepted a process that often undervalued expertise.

In this Smarter Marketer Podcast episode, Host James Lawrence and renowned author Blair Enns discuss how the future of creative and professional services lies in changing how we buy, sell and trust expertise. Whether you’re in-house or agency-side, these shifts carry big implications for how you choose partners and build lasting relationships that drive marketing success.

• Why traditional pitching often undervalues creative work and what it takes to break free from it
• How specialisation is the key to differentiation, growth and global reach
• What three-option proposals and value-based pricing reveal about how expertise should really be sold
• Why selling is less about the big presentation and more about a series of meaningful conversations
• How AI is fragmenting the market and empowering smaller, more specialised players
• What in-house marketers can do to unlock more value from their agency partners.

Blair Enns is the founder of Win Without Pitching, a sales training organisation for creative and professional services firms. He is the author of The Win Without Pitching Manifesto, Pricing Creativity and The Four Conversations: A New Model for Selling Expertise. Blair is also the co-host of the widely followed 2Bobs podcast.

James Lawrence LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameslawrenceoz/

Smarter Marketer Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/smarter-marketer-podcast

Rocket Agency Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/

Rocket Agency LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/rocket-agency-pty-ltd/

Hardcover: https://amzn.to/30O63kg

Kindle: https://amzn.to/2ZqfCWm

This is the definitive podcast for Australian marketers. Join Rocket Agency Co-Founder and best-selling author, James Lawrence in conversation with marketers, leaders, and thinkers about what it takes to be a smarter and more successful marketer.

Ranking in ChatGPT is now one of the most urgent challenges in digital marketing. With millions of Australians using AI search every week, the question for in-house marketers isn’t whether ChatGPT is shaping buyer journeys anymore, it’s how to make sure your brand is visible where and when it matters most.

In this episode of the Smarter Marketer Podcast, James Lawrence is joined by Rocket’s Head of SEO, Joe Alder, to unpack the latest research and share practical advice on what it really takes to rank in ChatGPT.

• Why traffic from ChatGPT converts at over 5x the rate of traditional search traffic, and what that means for marketers
• The two ways ChatGPT sources information, and how each affects your visibility
• The technical dos and don’ts that determine whether your site can be read by ChatGPT
• How to structure copy so it’s more likely to be cited in AI search
• The kinds of content that are consistently favoured in AI responses
• Why authority now means brand mentions, reviews, listicles and awards, not just backlinks
• The hard truth about measurement: why click-through rates from ChatGPT are so low, and what you can do to track your traffic from AI search

Joe Alder is the Head of SEO at Rocket Agency, leading all SEO services and projects. With over 8 years of experience, Joe has implemented complex SEO campaigns for B2C, B2B and government organisations, working with notable brands such as Amazon, Qudos, P&O Cruises, PE Nation, Fujitsu and Coates.

Since the launch of ChatGPT, he and his team have been at the frontline of AI search optimisation - running first-hand tests across thousands of queries, analysing data from Australia’s top websites and guiding brands on how to adapt their SEO strategies for an AI-driven future.

James Lawrence LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameslawrenceoz/

Smarter Marketer Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/smarter-marketer-podcast

Rocket Agency Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/

Rocket Agency LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/rocket-agency-pty-ltd/

Hardcover: https://amzn.to/30O63kg

Kindle: https://amzn.to/2ZqfCWm

This is the definitive podcast for Australian marketers. Join Rocket Agency Co-Founder and best-selling author, James Lawrence in conversation with marketers, leaders, and thinkers about what it takes to be a smarter and more successful marketer.

As competition heats up across professional services, simply telling people what you do is no longer enough. The difference between winning and blending in ultimately comes down to perspective: how you see the world, not just what you sell. Too often, brands overlook this, falling back on cliche messaging in their industry that leaves buyers unmoved.

In this episode, James Lawrence (Co-Founder, Rocket Agency) welcomes back Alex James - one of Australia’s leading messaging strategists - to discuss what it takes to build a B2B messaging perspective that actually cuts through. If you’re leading in-house strategy, this conversation will reshape how you think about differentiation and help you find a standpoint your market won’t forget.

• Why rising competition has made differentiated messaging a necessity in B2B services
• The distinction between what you do, how you do it and why a strong perspective matters most
• The pitfalls of relying solely on frameworks like “purpose, vision, mission, values,”
• How to find and own a perspective that cuts through sameness by challenging the status quo
• Practical ways to involve leadership and non-marketing teams in building messaging that sticks
• Why speaking to your audience’s aspirations, not just pain points, attracts better-fit clients
• Common mistakes in B2B messaging to avoid, including the dangers of presenting as a vendor rather than a true expert partner
• The importance of living your perspective consistently across team culture and every client touchpoint

Alex James is a B2B messaging strategist and the founder of Minimalist Marketing Co, a Melbourne-based consultancy that works with B2B service firms across the US and Europe. Drawing on over a decade of experience and a journey that spans multiple marketing roles, viral TikToks and content that’s shaped entire client pipelines, Alex helps firms build standout perspectives that resonate with buyers.

James Lawrence LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameslawrenceoz/

Smarter Marketer Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/smarter-marketer-podcast

Rocket Agency Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/

Rocket Agency LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/rocket-agency-pty-ltd/

Hardcover: https://amzn.to/30O63kg

Kindle: https://amzn.to/2ZqfCWm

This is the definitive podcast for Australian marketers. Join Rocket Agency Co-Founder and best-selling author, James Lawrence in conversation with marketers, leaders, and thinkers about what it takes to be a smarter and more successful marketer.

Marketing in 2025 is being shaped by what some experts call a 'polycrisis' - disruption layered upon disruption. From global conflicts to inflation to AI-driven job shifts, the market conditions facing both brands and consumers are becoming more complex and unpredictable. For marketers, the challenge isn’t just keeping up; it’s finding ways to cut through the noise and still build for the long term.

In this episode of Smarter Marketer, Host James Lawrence (Co-Founder, Rocket Agency) speaks with Dan Robertson-Jones (Partner, Kantar) about the findings from Kantar’s recent report on marketing effectiveness in Australia. They discuss the pressures driving short-term thinking, the impact of brand erosion, why creative quality matters more than most marketers realise and how consumer behaviour is changing as 'sameness' floods the markets.

Whether you’re a CMO navigating budget scrutiny or a marketer trying to align brand and performance, this conversation offers a clear-eyed view of where marketing is heading and how to adapt.

• Why Australian marketers are facing mounting pressure to prove short-term ROI
• The risks of over-indexing on performance marketing
• How consumers are reshaping brand relationships as economies face stress from the polycrisis
• The drop in meaningfully different brands over the past decade, and what’s driving it
• How the “sea of sameness” in creative is eroding the effectiveness of marketing
• Why cultural relevance is key to standing out
• Why consistency across touchpoints is harder now, and how measurement systems can bridge short and long-term goals
• The importance of boldness and foresight for growth in a volatile market

Read the report here: Marketing Effectiveness Hub

Dan Robertson-Jones is a Partner at Kantar, one of the world’s leading marketing data and analytics companies. With over two decades of experience in strategic marketing research, Dan helps brands navigate disruption and decode shifting consumer behaviour.

• James Lawrence LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameslawrenceoz/
• Smarter Marketer Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/smarter-marketer-podcast
• Rocket Agency Website: https://rocketagency.com.au/
• Rocket Agency LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/rocket-agency-pty-ltd/

• Hardcover: https://amzn.to/30O63kg
• Kindle: https://amzn.to/2ZqfCWm

This is the definitive podcast for Australian marketers. Join Rocket Agency Co-Founder and best-selling author, James Lawrence in conversation with marketers, leaders, and thinkers about what it takes to be a smarter and more successful marketer.