Helen Toner, whose decade of work on AI Safety came in to prominence when she was the OpenAI Board member who led the revolt against Sam Altman, and Emelia Probasco, who covers the national securty angles of AI both now work at the Centre for Security and Emerging Technology (CSET).

They join the podcast to discuss the security issues around AI with the conversation ranging from their take on the China / US race, the role of allies, alternative paths for the technology and the "AI Adulting Problem".

We discuss the challenges around AI as a dual use technology. As a general purpose technology it is impossible to control what happens next. This can cut both ways - drones optimised for warfare canm deliver humanitarian aid wiht great precision.

The key is to keep talking - and we discuss the current state of diplomacy around AI, why the US needs allies and how the worriers need to better articulate their concerns if we want to solve them.

We also touched on the alternative - how AI is being deployed in the military, why the existing rules of war matter, the challenges of deploying AI in legacy organisations (and with legacy weapons systems).

Helen and Emelia bring real insight from working on some of the hardest problems from where national security meets the transformational power of AI.

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In this episode, we sit down with Karen Hao—award-winning journalist, MIT-trained engineer, TIME 100 AI honoree, and author of the best-seller Empire of AI—to unpack the power structures shaping today’s AI, business, and competition.

She has a clear and punchy point of view. In our conversation we ask:

- Is the Silicon Valley–Wall Street model the only way forward, or others can chart a better path?

- Do paradigm shifts like AI inevitably create harmful externalities—hidden data workers, energy and water shortages—just as the Industrial Revolution created pollution and child labor?

- Are today’s billion-dollar AI investments solving big problems—or just fuelling hype?

- Are we consciously shaping AI—or sleepwalking in “a dream made in the Valley”?

Karen argues that today’s AI giants act as modern empires: claiming resources that aren’t theirs, exploiting vulnerable labour, monopolizing knowledge, and sustaining themselves with a narrative of existential competition. She shows how many tools we use were born from subjective and often ad-hoc decisions—like scraping even the murkiest corners of the internet—despite harmful downstream effects.

She is critical of current regulatory efforts, weakened by Big Tech lobbying and points to real alternatives. She warns of an inevitable financial bust—investments wildly outpacing business value. But her message is ultimately hopeful: beyond the Big Labs, smaller teams are building AI for healthcare and the environment, showing that another path is possible.

Her call to action is clear: we must not sleepwalk into a future shaped by a self-serviing AI elite. We need to collectively imagine alternatives, and build a more balanced future. As Karen claims, something better is achievable: "The shape of a technology is never inevitable: there are many, many human choices."

Note: This podcasst was recorded as part of an INSEAD alumni webinar. Live questions were submitted by the audience.

Empire of AI book link.

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Saif Al Salman is Microsoft's National Technology Officer in the United Arab Emirates where "AI is a national bet for the country for the next 50 years."

Saif has a front row seat to their sustained push: from appointing the first AI MInister to the recent promise to invest $1.4 trillion in US-aligned AI technology and infrastucture. The country has invested across multiple fronts ranging from talent to infrastructure to new local language models. AI strategy has become national strategy as they deploy their huge legacy capital stock (and solar power) to pivot in to the business of selling compute (or tokens). This national transformation is projected to grow the economy by over 20% in the coming years.

And their strength means that they are now positioned to deploy AI as "soft power". Saif outlines how UAE is offering Africa support with local language models, infrastructure and "blueprint for how tech can drive inclusive growth."

Saif argues that nations must "dream big" if they want to prosper in the Age of Intelligence. Technology is moving fast and new powers are rising - are you ready for this new world?

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"I want to give people the map ... what you do with it is up to you." Demba Ba has a 5-year ambition to cut open the AI Black Box and explain what makes LLMs work.

Demba Ba, the Harvard Professor described as an "AI Neurosurgeon", shows why explainability lies at the heart of humans taking control of AI's alien intelligence. And if we get this right then we will also gain huge insight - "a neurosurgeon's dream" - in to not only how AI but also humans think.

The conversartion ranges from the immediate opportunities from healthcare roll-out and AI audit (why did the AI make that decision?) to the potential power this could give the state to manipulate people. And if we can understand and predict AI behaviour, and do the same with people, what does this tell us about free will, or are we all just products of our training data? If we can create individual human knowledge graphs - building the human model - then does this mean we can predict an individual's actions? What are the implications for AI tweaking - does lobotomy (or AI dissection and editing) have a wider impact?

We also discussed the huge AI opportunity for Africa - potentially one of the biggest winners in the coming Age of Intelligence.

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What can one learn from a Private Equity AI executive who quotes Leon Trotsky?

Francois led the Boston Consulting Group’s Henderson Institute in its recent impactful work on Generative AI and the workforce. Ideas such as the “jagged frontier” and “AI as an exo-skeleton” have helped create mental models for everyone working in the space.

He brings a unique perspective on AI adoption and competitiveness of companies and nations, combining decades of experience with BCG’s large clients and his new role working with SMEs in Private Equity. He argues that smaller companies have the advantage of speed and focus. He lays out a framework for how companies can embrace the technology - with a clear focus on how to bring people with them. This means firms must be ambitious with AI: they must “hunt elephants, not rabbits” and stay focused on the business case rather than any technical details that may not matter.

His experience working in China for years shows him the difference between countries with a sense of urgency and those who are too focused on defending existing structures. The key is to “protect individuals not job descriptions”, as he urges policy makers to do.

He provides insights on what children should study but reassures that not all jobs will disappear: “There will be consultants as long as there are learning curves”. Learning is at the core of intelligence and the only way to live in a world where … revolution is permanent.

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Pattie Maes brings a unique perspective to the quest to build better machines: she pioneered the concept of the software agent in the 1990s. Ever since - as an entrepreneur and leading MIT academic - she has focused on the mission to help make humans smarter. To augment humanity, not robots.

She takes us on her professional journey - from her first company (Agents Inc) to her latest research at MIT. Pattie is focused on how computer systems and digital devices might augment people and assist them with issues such as memory, learning, decision making, health and wellbeing. In 2025 she was recognized with the "Lifetime Achievement Award in Human Computer Interaction" by the Association for Computing Machinery (ACM).

She talked us through her concerns about AI - the sheer power of a technoklogy that is increasingly intermediating between us and the world around us. But it is riddled with bias and prone to hijacking for often nefarious ends. And, as her research shows, humans are very open to simply falling in with this powerful persuasive force.

Pattie's words will be important for anyone wondering how to engage with this technology - wise warnings combined with a clear sense of all that should be possible if only we aimed for better. This raises the stakes for Europe - she argues that for reasons both selfish (national security) and idealistic (building a better world) Europe must aspire to take control of its "new utility".

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What does it take to deliver AI at scale in a traditional industry? Morgan Stanley, where Jeff McMillan is the Chief AI Officer, was a launch customer for GPT 4 and continues to innovate and invest in the space. His lessons on how to engage, how to start and how to scale AI - with tips on data, on leadership, on investment - will be of use to any corporate leader deploying AI at scale.

Jeff also gives us his unique perspective on the state of play on AI around the world based on the hundreds of meetings he has held at the most senior levels with business and governments. He has a front seat for the great industrial and geo-political race of our time and speaks luciidly on the opportunties and challenges facing global decision-makers in the Age of Intelligence.

Counter-intuitively he believes that industries which are already heavily regulated have an AI advantage. He argues that large global companies will have scale advantage from deploying AI. But capturing these opportunties requires action and Jeff is generous with his practical, hard-earned advice to leaders on how to get going and how to scale.

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If you can work out where the world's leading AI researchers are choosing to work then you will have a looking glass in to the future of both the technology and the balance of power. This was the thesis that led Tom Hurd—former UK Homeland Security Advisor - to found Zeki, which tracks the world's top AI talent. He tells us about his pivot from tracking terrorists and COVID outbreaks to tracking the world’s top AI minds.

Tom explains why talent is the ultimate disruptor in the AI race, and that where talent moves today, and which talent, can be a predictor of things to come.

He charts seismic shifts as the U.S. becomes a net exporter of AI talent, the potential impact of India retaining its brightest graduates, and how nations are aggressively competing for brainpower. We dive into Google DeepMind's dominance of elite LLM talent - whilst Nvidia and Anthropic are playing a different game. He explains why Europe needs product-savvy talent to fuel its AI research labs and startups, and how Zeki uses “Moneyball for deep tech” to uncover hidden innovators.

Tune in to the debut episode of The Age of Intelligence, with hosts Theos and Tim, to discover how mastering talent strategy is the secret weapon in investing in and building tomorrow’s AI.

For further reading: Zeki’s 2025 State of AI Talent Report at zekidata.com.

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