Helen Toner, whose decade of work on AI Safety came in to prominence when she was the OpenAI Board member who led the revolt against Sam Altman, and Emelia Probasco, who covers the national securty angles of AI both now work at the Centre for Security and Emerging Technology (CSET).

They join the podcast to discuss the security issues around AI with the conversation ranging from their take on the China / US race, the role of allies, alternative paths for the technology and the "AI Adulting Problem".

We discuss the challenges around AI as a dual use technology. As a general purpose technology it is impossible to control what happens next. This can cut both ways - drones optimised for warfare canm deliver humanitarian aid wiht great precision.

The key is to keep talking - and we discuss the current state of diplomacy around AI, why the US needs allies and how the worriers need to better articulate their concerns if we want to solve them.

We also touched on the alternative - how AI is being deployed in the military, why the existing rules of war matter, the challenges of deploying AI in legacy organisations (and with legacy weapons systems).

Helen and Emelia bring real insight from working on some of the hardest problems from where national security meets the transformational power of AI.

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In this episode, we sit down with Karen Hao—award-winning journalist, MIT-trained engineer, TIME 100 AI honoree, and author of the best-seller Empire of AI—to unpack the power structures shaping today’s AI, business, and competition.

She has a clear and punchy point of view. In our conversation we ask:

- Is the Silicon Valley–Wall Street model the only way forward, or others can chart a better path?

- Do paradigm shifts like AI inevitably create harmful externalities—hidden data workers, energy and water shortages—just as the Industrial Revolution created pollution and child labor?

- Are today’s billion-dollar AI investments solving big problems—or just fuelling hype?

- Are we consciously shaping AI—or sleepwalking in “a dream made in the Valley”?

Karen argues that today’s AI giants act as modern empires: claiming resources that aren’t theirs, exploiting vulnerable labour, monopolizing knowledge, and sustaining themselves with a narrative of existential competition. She shows how many tools we use were born from subjective and often ad-hoc decisions—like scraping even the murkiest corners of the internet—despite harmful downstream effects.

She is critical of current regulatory efforts, weakened by Big Tech lobbying and points to real alternatives. She warns of an inevitable financial bust—investments wildly outpacing business value. But her message is ultimately hopeful: beyond the Big Labs, smaller teams are building AI for healthcare and the environment, showing that another path is possible.

Her call to action is clear: we must not sleepwalk into a future shaped by a self-serviing AI elite. We need to collectively imagine alternatives, and build a more balanced future. As Karen claims, something better is achievable: "The shape of a technology is never inevitable: there are many, many human choices."

Note: This podcasst was recorded as part of an INSEAD alumni webinar. Live questions were submitted by the audience.

Empire of AI book link.

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Saif Al Salman is Microsoft's National Technology Officer in the United Arab Emirates where "AI is a national bet for the country for the next 50 years."

Saif has a front row seat to their sustained push: from appointing the first AI MInister to the recent promise to invest $1.4 trillion in US-aligned AI technology and infrastucture. The country has invested across multiple fronts ranging from talent to infrastructure to new local language models. AI strategy has become national strategy as they deploy their huge legacy capital stock (and solar power) to pivot in to the business of selling compute (or tokens). This national transformation is projected to grow the economy by over 20% in the coming years.

And their strength means that they are now positioned to deploy AI as "soft power". Saif outlines how UAE is offering Africa support with local language models, infrastructure and "blueprint for how tech can drive inclusive growth."

Saif argues that nations must "dream big" if they want to prosper in the Age of Intelligence. Technology is moving fast and new powers are rising - are you ready for this new world?

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