Steve DeFrank is a top New York painter with numerous one-person exhibitions and group exhibitions. His solo exhibitions include Clementine Gallery in New York, and the Clifford Smith Gallery in Boston. His group shows include the Smithsonian Institute’s National Portrait Gallery and The National Arts Club in New York, and many others. His work has been reviewed in The New York Times, in The New Yorker, and many others. He’s been a Visiting Artist at Cornell University, the Massachusetts College of Art, and he currently teaches at the School of Visual Arts in New York City, where he's taught sculpture, new media art, painting, drawing, and other courses.

In this conversation, DeFrank shares his insights on teaching creativity and the artistic process. He emphasizes the importance of focusing on the journey of creativity rather than the end product, encouraging students to embrace uncertainty and anxiety as part of their artistic growth. DeFrank discusses the significance of developing an "artistic eye" and the challenges students face in learning to see and interpret the world around them. He reflects on the transformative experience of the foundation year for art students and the ongoing dialogue between the artist's hand and eye. This is a brilliant inside view of a process-oriented approach to art that values exploration and personal expression.

For additional information:

Steve's web site: https://www.stevedefrank.com/

The book Learning to See, with many quotations from Steve and from other SVA artists and designers: www.learningtosee.net

Music by license from SoundStripe:

• "Uptown Lovers Instrumental" by AFTERNOONZ
• "Miss Missy" by AFTERNOONZ
• "What's the Big Deal" by Ryan Saranich

Copyright (c) 2025 Keith Sawyer

Scott Barry Kaufman is an influential psychologist, creativity researcher, podcaster, and best-selling book author. In this episode, we explore themes such as the messy nature of creative minds, the importance of incubation, and the role of daydreaming. We discuss the brain's imagination network and the balance between conscious and unconscious processes in fostering creativity. Scott emphasizes the significance of psychological flexibility and the ability to embrace uncertainty, while also highlighting the value of sensitivity in the creative process. Our discussion culminates in practical advice for enhancing creativity through openness to experience and reflective practices.

For more information:

Scott's web site

Scott's book Wired to Create: Unraveling the Mysteries of the Creative Mind

Scott's new book Rise Above

Music by license from SoundStripe:

• "Uptown Lovers Instrumental" by AFTERNOONZ
• "Miss Missy" by AFTERNOONZ
• "What's the Big Deal" by Ryan Saranich

Copyright (c) 2025 Keith Sawyer

Kelly Leonard has been involved with improv comedy for almost 40 years. He's worked with actors and comedians including Stephen Colbert, Tina Fey, Keegan Michael Key, Seth Meyers and Amy Poehler. He started working at the Second City Theater in Chicago in 1988, eventually becoming producer in 1992, and later, taking on roles and titles including Executive Director, Executive Vice President, and Creative Adviser. Since 2016, he’s been Vice President of Creative Strategy, Innovation, and Business Development. He’s produced hundreds of original revues. His 2015 book Yes, And received rave reviews in Vanity Fair and the Washington Post. He co-leads a new partnership with Booth School at the University of Chicago that studies behavioral science through the lens of improvisation. He is a popular speaker, appearing at Aspen Ideas Festival, Chicago Ideas Week and TEDxBroadway and hosts the Second City Works/WGN Podcast “Getting to Yes, And.”

For additional information:

• Kelly's web site
• The book Yes, And

Music by license from SoundStripe:

• "Uptown Lovers Instrumental" by AFTERNOONZ
• "Miss Missy" by AFTERNOONZ
• "What's the Big Deal" by Ryan Saranich

Copyright (c) 2025 Keith Sawyer

Dr. Adam Green is an expert in brain research and neurostimulation of creativity. He also studies how the use of AI influences creativity in the user. Spoiler alert: Using AI often reduces creativity. He’s the Director of the Laboratory for Relational Cognition at Georgetown University, a founder and former president of The Society for the Neuroscience of Creativity, and Editor-In-Chief at the Creativity Research Journal. His main interest is in human creative intelligence and especially in understanding how neural processes constitute our best ideas. Adam’s work includes research into endogenous neural mechanisms and exogenous neurostimulation that support creative relational reasoning, as well as research on the neuroscience of teaching and learning in real-world educational contexts. His research has been reported on NBC, CNN, BBC, NPR, and in print in the Times of London, Scientific American, Wired, Fast Company, and many others.

For More Information:

Keith's book Learning to See: Inside the World's Leading Art and Design Schools

Dr. Adam Green at The Laboratory for Relational Cognition at Georgetown University

Music by license from SoundStripe:

• "Uptown Lovers Instrumental" by AFTERNOONZ
• "Miss Missy" by AFTERNOONZ
• "What's the Big Deal" by Ryan Saranich

Copyright (c) 2025 Keith Sawyer

Scott Thorp is an artist, writer and educator specializing in creativity. He’s a professor at Augusta University, and is the Chair of the Department of Art and Design and the Associate Vice President for Interdisciplinary Research. Scott earned his MFA in multi-disciplinary art from the Maryland Institute College of Art. In addition to his artistic practice, he was a regular contributor to the international art magazine, ArtPulse, where he wrote about technology-based, contemporary artists. Before Augusta University, he was a professor at Savannah College of Art and Design (SCAD) from 2005 to 2015, where he was the Design Coordinator and he designed and taught the course “Creative Thinking Strategies.”

Music by license from SoundStripe:

• "Uptown Lovers Instrumental" by AFTERNOONZ
• "Miss Missy" by AFTERNOONZ
• "What's the Big Deal" by Ryan Saranich

Copyright (c) 2025 Keith Sawyer

Dr. Jonathan Feinstein, a professor at Yale University, studies the developmental paths of creative individuals, including entrepreneurs, inventors, artists and scientists. His book Creativity in Large-Scale Contexts was published in 2023. He is also the author of The Nature of Creative Development (2006). His current work focuses on models of creative engagement, centering on guidance, learning, opportunities, and paths of development. What do we choose to learn and explore as we develop our creative interests and passions? What opportunities arise, which projects do we pursue? His approach emphasizes the rich diverse patterns of development, unfolding over a few years or a lifetime.

On top of all this, he is an expert in the field of tax compliance and the analysis of audit and detection processes. At Yale, he teaches core statistics and runs the math book camp.

For more information:

• Dr. Feinstein’s web site at Yale University
• Creativity in Large-Scale Contexts: Guiding Creative Engagement and Exploration, from Stanford University Press.
• The Nature of Creative Development, from Stanford University Press.

Music by license from SoundStripe:

• "Uptown Lovers Instrumental" by AFTERNOONZ
• "Miss Missy" by AFTERNOONZ
• "What's the Big Deal" by Ryan Saranich

Copyright (c) 2024 Keith Sawyer

Everyone who works in television and movie comedy knows Charna Halpern. She’s trained thousands of actors, writers, and producers at her Chicago theater, founded in 1981, called the iO theater. In this episode, Charna tells personal and funny stories about actors from Chris Farley and Neil Flynn to Tina Fey and Amy Poehler. Along with actor and director Del Close, Charna invented modern improvisational theater in the 1980s. The art form known as long form improvisation—a 20 or 30-minute fully improvised one-act play—was developed at the iO theater, and is still found on their stage at seven nights a week at 1501 N. Kingsbury Street in Chicago.

Charna is one of the best-known and best-loved people in comedy because she developed a system for training actors how to improvise together. Her training takes a full year and it’s so effective that TV producers, like Lorne Michaels, regularly visit iO theater to audition the actors who’ve graduated from the program. Sometimes on Saturday Night Live, every actor was once at the iO theater.

Charna created a family, a community, that she lovingly calls “my people.” Here are just a few of the famous actors and writers who we talk about in this episode (in order of mention): Lorne Michaels; Cecily Strong; Tina Fey; Amy Poehler; Mike Myers; Vanessa Bayer; Adam McKay; Brian Stack; Stephen Colbert; David Koechner; Rachel Dratch; Chris Farley; Sarah Silverman; Stephanie Ware; Neil Flynn; Larry David; Seth Myers; John Lutz; Matt Walsh; Tim Meadows. She even tells a story about how she let Adam McKay sleep on her couch before he was famous because he couldn’t afford to stay in Chicago.

When I was doing my research on improvisation in the early 1990s, the theater was called “Improv Olympic” and only later renamed “iO.” Don’t tell anyone I said that.

For more information:

• iO theater. https://ioimprov.com/
• Truth in Comedy. Charna Halpern, Del Close, Kim Howard Johnson.
• Art by Committee. Charna Halpern.

Music by license from SoundStripe:

• "Uptown Lovers Instrumental" by AFTERNOONZ
• "Miss Missy" by AFTERNOONZ
• "What's the Big Deal" by Ryan Saranich

Copyright (c) 2025 Keith Sawyer

Dr. Mark Runco is a professor and is the Director of Creativity Research and Programming at Southern Oregon University. Over 35 years ago, he founded an influential scientific journal called The Creativity Research Journal and he was the editor of that journal until 2020. He’s published books that are widely read by creativity researchers such as his college textbook, Creativity: Research, Development, and Practice (three editions), The Creativity Research Handbook (1997, 2011, 2012), and the very first Encyclopedia of Creativity in 1999. He’s known for his studies of core topics in creativity research including problem finding, assessment, and divergent thinking. His recent writings are critical of the widespread claim that Gen AI is creative. He argues that creativity is unique to humans, and we’re going to talk about that today.

Mark developed and still teaches seminars on creativity, including "Creativity: What It Is and What It Is Not," "The Assessment of Creativity," "Creative Cognition," and "Social Contexts for Creativity." He is past president of Division 10 (Psychology, Art, Creativity, and Aesthetics) of the American Psychological Association. Episodes 23 and 24 of this podcast are about the annual conference of Division 10.

Additional information:

Mark Runco’s web site

First edition of Encyclopedia of Creativity, 1999 (with Steven Pritzer)

Second edition, 2011 (with Steven Pritzker)

Creativity: Research, Development, and Practice (third edition, 2023)

The Creativity Research Handbook (third edition, 2012)

Music by license from SoundStripe:

"Uptown Lovers Instrumental" by AFTERNOONZ

"Miss Missy" by AFTERNOONZ

"What's the Big Deal" by Ryan Saranich

Copyright (c) 2025 Keith Sawyer