Supported by Our Partners• CodeRabbit — Cut code review time and bugs in half. Use the code PRAGMATIC to get one month free.• Modal — The cloud platform for building AI applications—What happens when LLMs meet real-world codebases? In this episode of The Pragmatic Engineer, I am joined by Varun Mohan, CEO and Co-Founder of Windsurf. Varun talks me through the technical challenges of building an AI-native IDE (Windsurf) —and how these tools are changing the way software gets built. We discuss: • What building self-driving cars taught the Windsurf team about evaluating LLMs• How LLMs for text are missing capabilities for coding like “fill in the middle”• How Windsurf optimizes for latency• Windsurf’s culture of taking bets and learning from failure• Breakthroughs that led to Cascade (agentic capabilities)• Why the Windsurf teams build their LLMs• How non-dev employees at Windsurf build custom SaaS apps – with Windsurf!• How Windsurf empowers engineers to focus on more interesting problems• The skills that will remain valuable as AI takes over more of the codebase• And much more!—Timestamps(00:00) Intro(01:37) How Windsurf tests new models(08:25) Windsurf’s origin story (13:03) The current size and scope of Windsurf(16:04) The missing capabilities Windsurf uncovered in LLMs when used for coding(20:40) Windsurf’s work with fine-tuning inside companies (24:00) Challenges developers face with Windsurf and similar tools as codebases scale(27:06) Windsurf’s stack and an explanation of FedRAMP compliance(29:22) How Windsurf protects latency and the problems with local data that remain unsolved(33:40) Windsurf’s processes for indexing code (37:50) How Windsurf manages data (40:00) The pros and cons of embedding databases (42:15) “The split brain situation”—how Windsurf balances present and long-term (44:10) Why Windsurf embraces failure and the learnings that come from it(46:30) Breakthroughs that fueled Cascade(48:43) The insider’s developer mode that allows Windsurf to dogfood easily (50:00) Windsurf’s non-developer power user who routinely builds apps in Windsurf(52:40) Which SaaS products won’t likely be replaced(56:20) How engineering processes have changed at Windsurf (1:00:01) The fatigue that goes along with being a software engineer, and how AI tools can help(1:02:58) Why Windsurf chose to fork VS Code and built a plugin for JetBrains (1:07:15) Windsurf’s language server (1:08:30) The current use of MCP and its shortcomings (1:12:50) How coding used to work in C#, and how MCP may evolve (1:14:05) Varun’s thoughts on vibe coding and the problems non-developers encounter(1:19:10) The types of engineers who will remain in demand (1:21:10) How AI will impact the future of software development jobs and the software industry(1:24:52) Rapid fire round—The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode:• IDEs with GenAI features that Software Engineers love• AI tooling for Software Engineers in 2024: reality check• How AI-assisted coding will change software engineering: hard truths• AI tools for software engineers, but without the hype—See the transcript and other references from the episode at https://newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/podcast—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@pragmaticengineer.com. Get full access to The Pragmatic Engineer at newsletter.pragmaticengineer.com/subscribe
