Is the small church model dead? In this explosive episode of Lead Time, Tim Ahlman and Jack Kalleberg sit down with Pastor Rob Myallis (ELCA) for a brutally honest conversation about the economic realities choking the life out of mid-sized churches. With rising costs, unsustainable pastoral expectations, and shifting cultural engagement, Rob unpacks why churches averaging 80–120 in attendance may not survive without radical change.

We tackle everything:

• $30,000 health insurance costs
• Why 150 people is the relational ceiling
• The burnout crisis among solo pastors
• Why people treat church like a rec center, not a sanctuary
• And the hard truth: your old church model probably isn’t working

If you’ve ever asked, “Why are so many churches declining?” or “What future does my congregation really have?”—this one’s for you.

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Bob Sundquist takes us on a captivating journey through the turbulent founding story of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod—a tale far more complex and human than most church histories acknowledge. Moving beyond simplified narratives of heroes and villains, Sundquist reveals how the first "celebrity pastor" of the LCMS, Martin Stephan, led 700 Saxon immigrants to America in 1838 only to face accusations and eventual exile across the Mississippi River.

This conversation reveals how historical understanding helps us navigate present church tensions between pastoral and congregational authority.

• History is fundamentally about storytelling and understanding people, not just memorizing dates
• Martin Stephan was the first "celebrity pastor" of the LCMS whose leadership eventually created a crisis
• The accusations against Stephan of sexual impropriety likely had no concrete evidence but were used to remove him
• C.F.W. Walther developed Lutheran understanding of church authority through the trauma of Stephan's removal
• Pastors should focus primarily on Word and Sacrament ministry rather than business management
• The LCMS has historically had a hyper-fixation on the Office of Ministry as a result of early traumas
• Walther's "Duties of an Evangelical Lutheran Synod" (1879) offers wisdom for contemporary church conflicts
• The Missouri Synod repeats the same resolutions without taking action, indicating unresolved tensions

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What happens when the traditional path to ministry isn't an option? For Pastor Eli Thomas, the journey to becoming an LCMS pastor meant navigating uncharted waters through the colloquy process while balancing family responsibilities, work, and education over eleven challenging years.

What began as a winding path through different denominations ultimately led him back to Lutheran theology through his rediscovery of the real presence of Christ in the sacraments.

• Taking 11 years to complete undergraduate and seminary education while working and raising a family
• Navigating the challenging colloquy process to become an LCMS pastor
• Finding joy in interactive Bible study that transforms both teacher and students
• Serving two congregations simultaneously, including one with an average age of 80
• Moving from lecture-style teaching to dialogue that helps people experience Scripture
• Reflecting on convention experiences and hopes for the future of pastoral formation
• Discovering God's faithfulness when facing unexpected challenges

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Joe Willmann shares his journey from wrestling coach to Lutheran Church Extension Fund leader, revealing how his perspective on leadership transformed from rigid systems to recognizing individual gifts and abilities. He explains that excellence should replace perfection as our aim in life and ministry, highlighting the difference between these mindsets.

• Moving beyond perfectionism to excellence creates space for growth while maintaining high standards
• The concept of "tending and keeping" provides a biblical framework for understanding our vocations
• True leadership flows naturally from being deep followers of Jesus rather than adopting leadership techniques
• The three greatest needs in churches today: embracing biblical stewardship, aiming for excellence, and letting non-essential things evolve
• Key behaviors for Christian leaders: developing winsome witness, adopting a posture of reception rather than critique, and loving difficult people
• LCEF partners with congregations and districts to start, sustain, and strengthen ministries through financial and strategic partnerships
• Changing a 30-year men's Bible study time resulted in attendance growing from 12 to 40-50 men

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Tim Ahlman welcomes Rev. Dr. Michael Eckelkamp, who shares transformative leadership insights from his experience as Senior Executive Director at Christ Lincoln Church and Schools and mentor to countless leaders.

• Two early mentors shaped Michael's approach to leadership: his third-grade teacher who helped him learn to read, and a man named Herbie who invited him to weekly dinners
• Understanding leadership and self-deception requires recognizing when we're "in the box" toward others, justifying our behavior by blaming them
• Trust operates like deposits in a bank account—consistent small investments create a reserve that allows relationships to weather occasional withdrawals
• Every congregation asks two questions about a new leader: "Will he love me?" and "Will he let me love him?"
• Young leaders need mentorship to develop character at the same rate as content knowledge
• Creating healthy rhythms (Michael swims at 4 am daily) provides capacity to handle leadership challenges
• High invitation coupled with high challenge creates environments where people grow spiritually and emotionally
• Curiosity (from Latin "cur" meaning heart) keeps us humble and open to what God is doing
• Leadership requires incremental 1% improvements in physical, emotional, spiritual and familial dimensions

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Tim sits down with Brian Stecker, associate pastor at Trinity Lutheran Church in Waconia, Minnesota, and creator of the "On the Line" podcast, to explore theological leadership in today's changing religious landscape. They discuss how traditional Lutheran theology can engage with contemporary culture while maintaining its rich intellectual tradition.

• CS Lewis's powerful influence as a bridge between classical education and modern thinking
• The importance of story in cultivating Christian imagination and faith formation
• Brian's unexpected journey from business to pastoral ministry through Tolkien's stories
• On-the-job pastoral learning and the value of theological "soft skills" in difficult situations
• Understanding the pastor's role as a leader within proper theological frameworks
• The LCMS's significant opportunity to expand its digital media presence
• How intellectually substantive content is attracting audiences contrary to conventional wisdom
• The "unfair advantage" of traditional theology as younger generations seek deeper roots
• Building unity within the LCMS while engaging diverse perspectives

Connect with Brian's work at ontheline.net or visit Trinity Waconia's website to learn more about their ministry.

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What happens when we apply biblical language to modern business concepts? Attorney Colin Hoffman joins Tim and Jack to challenge how Christian leaders use marketplace terminology and offers a refreshing biblical perspective on leadership development.

• Integrating faith in the marketplace through daily devotionals and Christ-centered business practices
• Using biblical language instead of business terminology – how "name" in Scripture relates to modern concept of "brand"
• Name changes in the Bible (Abraham, Israel, Peter) represent divine identity transformation similar to baptism
• John 17 as a perfect model of project management and leadership handoff from Jesus to God the Father
• Implementing Christian principles in legal practice through mediation clauses based on 1 Corinthians 6
• Creating high-trust business relationships by applying biblical wisdom to contracts, client relationships, and conflict resolution
• Christian business leaders serving as shepherds to employees and missionaries in places traditional ministry cannot reach.

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What if everything we thought about leadership was backward? In this thought-provoking exploration of "The Genius of Jesus," we unpack how Christ established the most effective leadership development movement in history—not through controlling hierarchies but through radical trust and empowerment.

• Jesus exemplifies genius by seeing connections others couldn't see and establishing an upside-down kingdom
• The Pharisaical tendency in leadership seeks identity in power over others rather than empowerment
• Healthy organizations foster innovation through teams rather than bureaucratic hierarchy
• Trust functions as currency—when present, it propels ministry forward; when absent, it creates resistance
• Effective leadership balances high trust with high accountability through transparency
• Decentralized decision-making requires clear values and principles that guide but don't restrict
• Leadership thrives when principles rather than rigid rules govern behavior
• Effective leaders instill thirst for mission rather than merely creating manuals and procedures

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