In this episode, Jack Cochran and Matthew James continue their conversation with Micah Joel, diving deep into the metrics that matter when building and justifying a demo engineering team. Micah shares practical approaches to measuring the value of demo engineering, from simple time-saving calculations to sophisticated surveys that capture SE satisfaction and retention indicators. The conversation explores how to frame these metrics in terms that senior management cares about, moving beyond technical accomplishments to demonstrate real business impact.

Micah emphasizes the importance of thinking "top down" when building a demo engineering organization, focusing on what leadership values most: productivity, cost savings, and revenue growth. He shares real-world examples from his time at Salesforce's Q Branch, including how to measure the value of demo environments, how to identify unexpected patterns in the data (like deals where demo engineers get involved), and how cultivating relationships with SEs creates goodwill that extends beyond the numbers. The discussion also covers how demo engineering impacts go-to-market speed for new products and how to position the team as mission-critical support for field teams rather than just a technical function.

• Connect with Jack Cochran: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackcochran/

• Connect with Matthew James https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthewyoungjames/

• Connect with Micah Joel: https://www.linkedin.com/in/micahjoel/

• Join Presales Collective Slack: https://www.presalescollective.com/slack

• Sol/Con 2026 (Chicago, August 2026): https://www.presalescollective.com/solcon-2026

• Presales Collective Podcast: https://www.presalescollective.com/podcast

1. Establishing baseline metrics for demo engineering through time-saving calculations

2. Using SE surveys to measure demo environment value and satisfaction

3. Identifying retention indicators at 3-year and 7-year tenure marks

4. Reducing technical barriers to hiring SEs through better demo tooling

5. Thinking "top down" to align metrics with senior management priorities

6. Measuring go-to-market speed and time-to-revenue for new products

7. Building goodwill and political capital with SE teams

8. Branding your demo engineering team with effective metaphors

9. Course-correcting when metrics don't align with expectations

10. Positioning demo engineering within the organization structure

00:00 Welcome

02:55 Measuring time saved with tooling

09:20 Reducing technical hiring barriers

13:50 Building the overall business case

18:30 When metrics don't line up

21:20 Product-to-Market (P2M)

27:40 Final thoughts on top-down thinking

In this episode, Jack Cochran and Matthew James sit down with Micah Joel, GTM leader and demo engineering pioneer, to explore what it means to build a dedicated demo engineering function from scratch. Micah shares his journey from theater kid to SE to leading Salesforce's legendary Q Branch, and unpacks why demo engineering might be the most underutilized lever in presales today. They cover the difference between deal-focused and infrastructure-focused demo engineers, how to structure the team, why blended teams fail, and how a mature demo engineering org can swim upstream into product strategy to reduce time-to-revenue. This is part one of two. Part two will focus on measuring and proving the value of a demo engineering team.

• Connect with Jack Cochran: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackcochran/

• Connect with Matthew James: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthewyoungjames/

• Connect with Micah Joel: https://www.linkedin.com/in/micahjoel/

• Join Presales Collective Slack: https://www.presalescollective.com/slack

• SoulCon 2026 (Chicago, August 2026): https://www.presalescollective.com/solcon-2026

• Presales Collective Podcast: https://www.presalescollective.com/podcast

1. Micah's Background: From Theater to SE to Demo Engineering

2. What Is Demo Engineering and How Is It Different from Being an SE?

3. When Does an Organization Need a Demo Engineering Team?

4. The Two Sides of Demo Engineering: Deal Support vs. Infrastructure/Scale

5. How to Hire and Structure the Team

6. Demo Engineering as a Talent Pipeline and Retention Strategy

7. Swimming Upstream: Demo Engineering's Role in Go-to-Market Strategy

8. Common Mistakes and How to Avoid Them

00:00 Welcome

02:48 Intro Micah Joel

05:42 Demo engineering definition

08:33 When do you need a DE team?

11:13 Deal side vs. infrastructure/scale side

15:48 Demo engineering as SE retention

23:55 Swimming upstream

27:11 Final advice

In this episode, Jack Cochran is joined by Nalin Senthamil, Founder and CEO of Storylane, to discuss the evolution of AI in presales beyond simple demo automation. They explore the hidden costs of demos, how the buyer themselves are becoming AI-powered, and the emergence of AI tools for sellers, much like Storylane has developed with RepEx

Thank you to Storylane for sponsoring this episode! Visit Storylane.io to learn more.

• Connect with Jack Cochran: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackcochran/

• Connect with Nalin Senthamil: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nalinpradeep/

• Join Presales Collective Slack: https://www.presalescollective.com/slack

• RepEx (AI buyer engagement platform): Available at https://www.storylane.io/

1. Nalin's Journey from Amazon AI Engineer to Demo Automation Founder

2. The Hidden Cost Per Demo

3. AI at the Infrastructure Level

4. RepEx: The Next Generation of Buyer Engagement

5. The Context Handoff Problem

6. Presales as Strategic Advisors in 2026

00:00 Welcome

03:15 Nalin's Background: From Amazon AI Engineer to Storylane Founder

05:54 The Cost Per Demo Problem and Demo Automation Impact

13:24 What are we leaving behind with AI, and what remains human?

20:00 RepEx Launch: Beyond Traditional Chatbots

26:25 The Importance of Context in the Buyer Journey

28:54 How Presales Teams Can Prepare for AI Integration

30:15 Final Advice: Building Long-Term AI Capabilities in Presales