The practice of engineering dates back thousands of years, incorporating science and mathematics to solve problems in the ancient world, and remains a key requirement for developing the complex digital systems controlling the physical systems core to our modern way of life. Unfortunately connectivity and complexity have created a vulnerability we must now engineer our way out of, and just like risk management, engineering is about balancing constraints.

Andrew Ginter is a recognized thought leader within the industrial security space with decades of real world experience and the willingness to distill that knowledge into a series of book on operational technology cybersecurity. Mr. Ginter's latest book "Engineering-Grade OT Security, a manager's guide" explores risk elements over multiple chapters and provided a great intersection with ESRM principles. A self professed collector of industry wisdom, Andrew was quick to highlight Cyber Informed Engineering principles for security engineering within OT and call out calculation issues when risk assessing black swans yet also offering an elegant approach to resolution.

Due to a technical glitch, this episode joins Andrew, Tim and Doug in mid-conversation about Cyber Informed Engineering instead of the typical introduction banter of most episodes.