Today’s disagreement is about college and its worth-it-ness. Does the traditional college model still make sense in today’s economy? Should we embrace shorter-term skills-based alternatives? And how can institutions balance access, affordability, and workforce readiness in a rapidly changing world?

Ryan Craig is a Managing Director at Achieve Partners and co-founder of Apprenticeships for America. Ryan is also the author of Apprentice Nation: How the "Earn and Learn" Alternative to Higher Education Will Create a Stronger and Fairer America.

Dr. Bridget Burns is founding CEO of the University Innovation Alliance, a ‘multi-campus laboratory’ for student success in higher education. Previously, Dr. Burns served as an American Council on Education Fellow at Arizona State University and a Senior Policy Advisor and Chief of Staff for the Oregon University System.

Episode Notes

02:00 - Bridget's Perspective
04:15 - Ryan's Counterpoint
06:12 - Defining 'Worth It': Beyond Economic ROI
09:59 - The Role of Higher Education in Society
15:19 - The Need for Accountability and Reform
17:14 - The Apprenticeship Dilemma
21:04 - College or Chipotle
21:32 - The European Model vs. The American System
22:59 - The Need for Adaptability and Social Skills
25:05 - The Cost and Value of College Education
26:17 - The Future of College and Employment
33:28 - Steel Man

This episode was recorded live in San Diego at the annual ASU+GSV Summit. You can watch the live stream of it on YouTube.

Questions or comments about this episode? Email us at podcast@thedisagreement.com or find us on X and Instagram @thedisagreementhq. Subscribe to our newsletter: https://thedisagreement.substack.com/

Earlier this year, President Trump signed an executive order aimed at ending birthright citizenship. He has placed this issue at the forefront of his immigration agenda and it is now being taken up by the Supreme Court. To have this conversation, we’ve brought together a constitutional law scholar and a political commentator.

Cristina Rodríguez is the Leighton Homer Surbeck Professor of Law at Yale Law School. In 2021, she was appointed by President Biden to co-chair the Commission on the Supreme Court of the United States. Her recent book is called The President and Immigration Law. She’s also the co-host of the new podcast: Unsettled: Immigration in Turbulent Times.

Rod D. Martin writes The Rod Martin Report on Substack. He is also the Founder and CEO of Martin Capital. As a tech entrepreneur and venture capitalist, Rod was previously an advisor to Peter Thiel. Rod also served as policy director to Mike Huckabee, the former Governor of Arkansas.

We talk a lot about the 14th Amendment in this episode. It was ratified in 1868 to give formerly enslaved people the right to vote. Here’s what it says: “all persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States.” Keep that phrase in mind. “Subject to the jurisdiction thereof.” It’ll come up a lot.

Our guests also discuss the Supreme Court cases Elk v Wilkins, Slaughterhouse, and Wong Kim Ark. All you need to know for this episode is: those rulings influenced the interpretation of the 14th Amendment. Last note, this episode is moderated by co-host and co-founder, Catherine Cushenberry.

Questions or comments about this episode? Email us at podcast@thedisagreement.com or find us on X and Instagram @thedisagreementhq. Subscribe to our newsletter: https://thedisagreement.substack.com/

Today’s disagreement is about college campus detentions, due process, and free speech.

We focus on the two most high-profile cases: Mahmoud Khalil: a green card holder, legal resident, and graduate student at Columbia University who had a leadership role within CUAD, which stands for Columbia University Apartheid Divest; and Rümeysa Öztürk: a graduate student at Tufts University who is a student visa holder. She co-authored an op-ed in the campus newspaper supporting a resolution to divest from Israel. We also briefly touch on the Kilmar Abrego Garcia case and President Bukele’s recent visit to the oval office.

Is there a legal basis for these deportations and what are the implications for free speech and due process? What does it mean to be an American? What kind of country do we want to live in? Are these deportations “good for the Jews”?

Graeme Wood is a staff writer for The Atlantic and a lecturer in political science at Yale University, where he has taught since 2014. Graeme has been a Press Fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, a visiting professor at the University of Pennsylvania, and a fellow at the United States Naval Academy.

Ilya Shapiro is a senior fellow and director of constitutional studies at the Manhattan Institute. He writes a Substack called Shapiro's Gavel and his new book is called Lawless: The Miseducation of America’s Elites.

One note: We had a few issues with audio quality - it’s not up to our normal standards - but it should not significantly impact your listening experience. Alright, take a deep breath, open your mind as far as it’s willing to go, and prepare for a different kind of conversation on campus deportations.

Questions or comments about this episode? Email us at podcast@thedisagreement.com or find us on X and Instagram @thedisagreementhq. Subscribe to our newsletter: https://thedisagreement.substack.com/

Questions or comments about this episode? Email us at podcast@thedisagreement.com or find us on X and Instagram @thedisagreementhq. Subscribe to our newsletter: https://thedisagreement.substack.com/

In March, we recorded an episode live on stage at SXSW EDU in Austin, Texas. This disagreement is all about ESAs, or Education Savings Accounts. You may have heard of ESAs under a different name, like vouchers or school choice programs. Right now, 18 states have some sort of ESA program in place.

The programs are becoming more popular across the country, but should they be? What accounts for the increasing support for ESAs? What risks and benefits do they pose for students and families? Does the rise of ESAs inherently harm our public schools?

When we say ESAs, we are NOT talking about 529 plans or other college savings programs. We’re talking about K-12 education. These programs create a government-authorized savings account for families, allowing them to take some quantity of the funding that would have supported their child in public school, and use those dollars in the way they see fit: whether that’s to supplement private school tuition, parochial school tuition, tutoring, special needs services or for other educational purposes.

Shaka Mitchell is a Senior Fellow at the American Federation for Children, an advocacy organization in the school choice movement. He has served in leadership roles at high-performing charter school networks, including Rocketship Education and LEAD Public schools in Nashville.

Jaime Puente is the Director of Economic Opportunity at Every Texan, an advocacy and public policy organization striving to expand opportunities for all Texans. He currently oversees their work on education. Previously, Jaime served as Legislative Director for members of the Texas House of Representatives.

This episode is moderated by The Disagreement’s co-host and co-founder Catherine Cushenberry.

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Questions or comments about this episode? Email us at podcast@thedisagreement.com or find us on X and Instagram @thedisagreementhq. Subscribe to our newsletter: https://thedisagreement.substack.com/

Today’s disagreement is about transgender health care for young people and the future of the trans rights movement.

Gender Affirming Care is a method of treating gender dysphoria by affirming a child’s gender identity and tailoring medical and social interventions around this identity. This might begin with a social transition and often leads to a medical protocol that involves puberty blockers and then cross sex hormones.

Almost a year ago, we had a conversation with leading national clinicians, Dr. Jack Drescher and Dr. Erica Anderson about the state of gender affirming care for young people in the United States. If you haven’t listened to that episode, I highly recommend it as a helpful primer for this conversation. Since then, a lot has changed in the conversation about trans care for young people.

In April 2024, the Cass report came out in the UK. It is one of the most thorough reviews of the evidence base for gender-affirming care. It also called into question the limits of what we know and don’t know about care for minors. Right now, 27 states have enacted laws to ban or restrict the practice and the supreme court will be ruling on it later this year. And the United States has a new presidential administration who recently issued the executive order: “Protecting Children from Chemical and Surgical Mutilation," which attempts to put forth a national ban on gender affirming care.

We ask some important questions around gender affirming care and the trans rights movement. Have trans advocates and medical practitioners overstated the quality of the evidence base for gender-affirming interventions for minors?

Brianna Wu is a political commentator and trans rights activist. She is executive director of the progressive Rebellion PAC.

Dr. Marci Bowers is a pelvic and gynecological surgeon with more than three decades of experience in healthcare. Dr. Bowers was most recently the president of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH). She was the organization's first transgender president.

Thank you to Brianna and Marci for coming together to have this critical conversation. It's a difficult topic and as you’ll hear, a difficult conversation. But we need more of this. We need more people willing to come together and have hard conversations out in the open, and we really appreciate you both.

This conversation is pretty “in the weeds” when it comes to youth gender medicine and the state of the research. If you have the context, that’s great – you can skip ahead. If you don’t, here is a highly efficient glossary:

• WPATH is the leading trans health organization in the world. Its “Standards of Care” or SOC - have served as the national guidelines for youth gender medicine in most gender clinics.
• The Standards of Care have evolved a great deal over time: SOC 6, published in 2001, required multiple psychological assessments and a period of Real Life Experience (RLE), living as the preferred gender, before any medical interventions. The most recent SOC, SOC 8, was published in 2022. It removed many of these requirements which activists have described as “gatekeeping.”
• The Dutch Protocol, also known as “watchful waiting”, is a more conservative alternative to gender-affirming care. It focuses on providing large amounts of psychological support and monitoring during childhood. If the dysphoria continues to persist, then putting young people on puberty blockers and cross sex hormones in late adolescence.
• Language around gender identity is constantly evolving. Brianna uses the term FTM (or Female to Male) to describe females who transition. For the same demographic, Marci uses “transmasculine.”
• We also talk about Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) and Facial Feminization Surgery (FFS).
• Okay, that will hopefully create a solid foundation. Take a deep breath. Open your mind as far as it’s willing to go. And prepare for a different kind of conversation on gender affirming care and the future of the trans rights movement.

Recommended Reading and Listening

• WPATH Standards of Care Version 8
• Last year’s episode of The Disagreement about gender-affirming care: https://podcasts.apple.com/si/podcast/12-gender-affirming-care-for-children-and-adolescents/id1735027795?i=1000658885782

Questions or comments about this episode? Email us at podcast@thedisagreement.com or find us on X and Instagram @thedisagreementhq. Subscribe to our newsletter: https://thedisagreement.substack.com/

Today’s disagreement is on The Telepathy Tapes, Autism, and the Paranormal. If you’re not familiar, The Telepathy Tapes is a cultural phenomenon and podcast that launched in Fall 2024. By early January, it was the number one podcast in the country. Today, it’s still in the top ten. Its core thesis is quite provocative: that there are non-verbal autistic young people who possess telepathic powers and are able to read the minds of their parents and teachers.

In this episode, we use The Telepathy Tapes as a springboard to ask some big questions about science, skepticism, and the nature of truth.

Is telepathy real? How should we evaluate the claims in the podcast? Do these claims adversely affect–even harm–the autistic young people being celebrated?

To have this conversation, we’ve brought together a journalist and a religious scholar with very different approaches to understanding the truth.

Zaid Jilani is a journalist whose work has appeared in The Intercept, News Nation and Alternet. He writes about politics and culture on his Substack The American Saga.

Jeffrey Kripal is the J. Newton Rayzor Chair in Philosophy and Religious Thought at Rice University and the Associate Director of the Center for Theory and Research at the Esalen Institute. Jeffrey is also the author of thirteen books, including most recently: How to Think Impossibly.

Before we get started, a note. In The Telepathy Tapes, the nonverbal autistic young people use a controversial method to communicate with the outside world. It’s called “facilitated communication.” There is an adult that helps to facilitate the young person’s communication—usually through some form of touch and holding a letterboard that the young person point to. We get into this in-depth on the podcast.

Questions or comments about this episode? Email us at podcast@thedisagreement.com or find us on X and Instagram @thedisagreementhq. Subscribe to our newsletter: https://thedisagreement.substack.com/

This episode was recorded live on stage at EDTECH WEEK in New York City. Like most edtech conferences, there were many conversations about the potential power that AI could play in student learning. Ours was a different kind of conversation. We brought together two experts who both expressed skepticism about the role AI should be playing in education today. While they agreed on many things, there is a highly productive disagreement around whether or not we should be actively teaching AI literacy (or “readiness”) to students in grades K-12.

Alex Kotran is the CEO of The AI Education Project (AI Edu), a non-profit devoted to making sure that all students are ready to live, work, and thrive in a world where AI is everywhere. Previously, he was the Director of AI Ethics at H5, a pioneering AI company in the legal services sector.

Benjamin Riley is the founder of Cognitive Resonance, a new venture dedicated to improving understanding of human cognition and generative AI. Previously, he founded and served as CEO of Deans for Impact, a nonprofit education organization working to improve teacher training through the use of cognitive science.

This episode is moderated by The Disagreement’s cohost and cofounder Catherine Cushenberry.

Questions or comments about this episode? Email us at podcast@thedisagreement.com or find us on X and Instagram @thedisagreementhq. Subscribe to our newsletter: https://thedisagreement.substack.com/

Want to listen to more live conversations from EDTECH WEEK 2024? Watch more here.

President Trump campaigned on a pledge to dismantle the DOE and has already made sweeping cuts to its research arm, the Institute of Education Sciences (IES). What role should the federal government play in U.S. education? Where should the Department of Education’s functions live bureaucratically? Should they stay in the DOE or be distributed to other federal agencies? Michelle Dimino is the Education Program Director at Third Way, a national, center-left think tank. Michelle’s research and advocacy focus on improving student outcomes, promoting quality and transparency, and strengthening accountability through pragmatic policy reforms. Neal McCluskey is the director of Cato’s Center for Educational Freedom. He is the author of the book The Fractured Schoolhouse: Reexamining Education for a Free, Equal, and Harmonious Society. Got questions or comments about this episode? Email us at podcast@thedisagreement.com or find us on X and Instagram @thedisagreementhq