We're joined by Ian Landsman, from the Mostly Technical podcast, joins us to chat about Outro.fm and Helpspot. We talk digital fatigue, the challenges of maintaining an online presence, the importance of building a community around shared interests, finding the right audience, and balancing personal goals with business objectives. As Brian⁩ prepares to launch Builder Methods Pro, we debate the value of community feedback and the potential for unforeseen opportunities in creating content online. Ian talks with us about the development of Outro.fm as an all-in-one solution for podcasters, the importance of building a membership community, the production side of podcasting tools, and the challenges faced in the podcasting market. Also: the difference between one-time sale products (courses) and SaaS.

Timestamps:

• (00:06) - The pre-show is the show
• (00:23) - Quitting Twitter
• (06:19) - Redesigning his website with AI
• (07:53) - Deciding on what a channel is for
• (13:59) - Chasing views and likes
• (20:58) - What are we up to this week
• (29:36) - Why subscription and community vs team training and consulting
• (50:32) - What should the premium content be for day one?
• (57:08) - What is Outro.fm?
• (01:15:04) - Who are Outro.fm's competition?
• (01:21:47) - Selling sponsorships for podcasts as a product
• (01:25:43) - The bet on how much revenue you'll get from your work
• (01:43:59) - Step 1: Become famous

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Links mentioned in this episode

• Ian Landsman
• A Smart Bear
• Builder Methods | Training for AI-first software developers
• Outro.fm
• Mostly Technical Member Site | Outro
• The Podcast Website Builder | Podpage
• Luma · Delightful Events Start Here
• The Changelog podcast
• Syntax - Web Development Podcast
• Help desk software for effortless email support

Brian is wondering: how do you manage a popular open source project? Justin went to Toronto and introduced his son to Adam Wathan, Wes Bos, Steve Schoger, and Caleb Porzio. Why does the same amount of effort produce wildly different results? And... is everyone getting tired of all this copycat content that's optimized for algorithms?

Timestamps:

• (00:20) - Preview of what we're going to talk about
• (02:11) - Builder Methods Pro and AgentOS
• (03:58) - The importance of human content in an age of algorithmic feeds
• (25:55) - Connecting with people in real life
• (33:52) - Zeroing in on Builder Methods revenue
• (48:25) - Managing an open source project in public
• (59:22) - The importance of enthusiasm in projects
• (01:12:21) - Effort and outcome

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Links mentioned in this episode

• Sam Sulek YouTube Channel
• Builder Methods Workshop
• Justin’s Toronto Hangout
• Marketing is a Transfer of Enthusiasm
• Agent OS GitHub Project
• Open Source Contribution Guidelines (Litestream)
• 37signals Book Royalties Revenue
• Effort vs Outcome Blog Post
• 1,000 True Fans
• Omarchy 2.0
• Wes Bos
• Downie - YouTube Video Downloader for macOS

Justin's been using Stripe Sigma to learn a lot more about the history of revenue at Transistor. He had a phone call with Jason Cohen about how to get what you want out of your business. And Brian talks through the same frameworks to figure out what might work best for Builder Methods including exploration of courses, cohorts, community, and more.

Timestamps:

• (00:06) - We're back!
• (00:59) - Brian's healthcare journey
• (09:36) - Deep dive into Stripe Sigma and Transistor's history
• (37:38) - Asking yourself the hard questions about your business
• (42:12) - The value of taking a win now
• (57:29) - What does Brian want with BuilderMethods
• (01:14:35) - Rob Snyder's Pull framework
• (01:30:48) - Can you do community well without the time commitment?
• (01:35:17) - Cohort vs courses
• (01:57:23) - How long is a long podcast episode?

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Links mentioned in this episode

• Jason Cohen: About the author
• Mostly Technical
• ChartMogul | CRM & Subscription Analytics built for B2B SaaS growth
• Message from Paddle
• Kit: Email-First Operating System for Creators (formerly ConvertKit)
• Build Your SaaS | The “charge more” debate
• Average Podcast Downloads: Podcast Measurement and Growth
• Finding Fulfillment
• Agent OS | A free open-source system to train smart AI coding agents
• The PULL framework - by Rob Snyder
• Jay Clouse - Creator Science
• Learn Laravel | Laracasts
• Wes Bos
• Learn Ruby on Rails | GoRails

Justin is wondering whether AI customer support is worth it. Brian is navigating the emotional rollercoaster of YouTube. He's wondering whether he should pursue sponsorships as a revenue stream. Brian introduces Agent OS, a new development tool designed to streamline coding processes when working with AI tooling (which got a big reaction during the live stream).

Timestamps:

• (00:33) - Justin's experiment with AI support chat bots
• (15:20) - Do you want AI writing your responses?
• (19:06) - Trying to figure out why Brian's latest video didn't work as well
• (26:35) - How important is it to keep publishing every week?
• (30:56) - Thinking sponsorship vs products
• (45:36) - The value of community
• (56:23) - What is Agent OS?
• (01:05:00) - Should Agent OS be free?

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Links mentioned in this episode

• Bento
• Transistor’s new customer service page
• Agent OS
• Agent OS on GitHub
• Brian’s YouTube
• Colin and Samir interview by Jay Clouse
• Colin and Samir
• Jay Clouse’s revenue breakdown
• Wes Bos
• Syntax.fm

AI and programming is a hot topic, and it feels like Brian⁩ has found that "founder/audience" fit where his interests align with a wave of audience interest. He and Justin discuss their process for making YouTube videos. Justin also asks: "how do we ensure that our worst tendencies don’t bloom" when we're making products? (Founder retreats and masterminds come up). The big topic: Brian's not loving SaaS (anymore).

Timestamps:

• (00:06) - Brian's YouTube journey
• (04:29) - What Brian's hoping BuilderMethods could be
• (08:26) - What does Brian's YouTube video script look like?
• (10:59) - Why is AI so bad for YouTube editors?
• (16:57) - One thing Descript really nails
• (19:44) - How Steve Jobs ruined his early companies
• (24:25) - Learning about your blindspots
• (28:40) - Seeking connection in mastermind groups or conferences
• (38:00) - How can we make sure we don't follow our worst impulses?
• (42:23) - Zooming in on our battery: what gives us energy?
• (53:00) - Getting alignment between what you love and what makes you money
• (01:00:10) - What might not work for one person, can be a smash hit for another
• (01:03:20) - What is the paid value of content lead companies?
• (01:21:07) - There are business models that are difficult

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Links mentioned in this episode

• Clarity Flow - Brian's SaaS product
• Transistor.fm - Justin's company
• Builder Methods
• The Panel Podcast (@panelpodcast.com) | TikTok
• Descript: Edit Videos & Podcasts Like a Doc | AI Video Editor
• DaVinci Resolve | Blackmagic Design
• Dithering
• Daring Fireball
• Shawn Blanc: Focus Like a Boss
• calf + clover creamery
• Daniel Pink
• Tally
• Profit First - Mike Michalowicz
• Mike Michalowicz – How the author of Profit First stays lean by licensing his ideas
• Apple in China
• Justin’s BlueSky post on Steve Jobs
• The Pull Framework
• Bowling drawing
• Marketing help for programmers, software companies, and SaaS
• Checklist idea for marketing page
• Profit first professionals

It's Justin's turn in the hot seat to talk about what he's got in his buckets: which projects make the most money? Which take the most time? Where is he focused on breaking new ground? How does Transistor, The Podcast Standards Projects, and other projects he's got going all fit together? Plus: what kind of grit, desire, and resilience do you need to actually build a company that works?

Timestamps:

• (01:09) - Why Brian will never join your Slack
• (04:54) - What email client did Brian switch to?
• (16:56) - Justin's matrix of boxes
• (17:58) - What are Justin's boxes?
• (19:54) - What is the Podcast Standards Project?
• (28:57) - The benefits of working in the same place together
• (35:49) - Pushing back on Justin's time allotement
• (38:48) - What's the work in the investment portfolio?
• (48:34) - Having the motivation and ability to commit
• (58:24) - Running your own business + a family changes the calculations
• (01:01:04) - Getting encouragment from simple projects

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Links mentioned in this episode

• Illustration: Justin's buckets
• Instrumental Components - Brian's new product
• Clarity Flow - Brian's SaaS product
• Transistor.fm - Justin's company
• Builder Methods
• Instrumental Components
• HEY – A delightfully fresh take on email + calendar, from 37signals
• Superhuman | The most productive email app ever made
• Shortwave | Download
• Readwise
• Podcast Standards Project | Advocating for open podcasting
• ProjectionLab - Modern Financial & Retirement Planning Tools
• Tiny | We buy wonderful businesses
• Going independent (2016 year in review)
• Here are some other podcasts we like
• For next week: Andrew Wilkinson's tweet about AI

Brian Casel shares a first look at BuilderMethods.com. Brian dig into how he's going to grow an email list from scratch, and we had a great chat about what makes an email newsletter awesome.

The bulk of our chat was about honestly assessing the resources, time, and energy Brian is putting into each project, and how much revenue each project is producing. (Check out Justin's diagram here)

Timestamps:

• (00:05) - We're back live!
• (01:15) - What is BuilderMethods.com?
• (04:04) - Brian's building a newsletter builder first
• (08:17) - What makes a good newsletter?
• (15:44) - Do videos work in email newsletters?
• (20:00) - Next steps for Brian in the business: products to offer?
• (22:17) - Offering consulting and coaching
• (25:20) - Does it all feel overwhelming to take on?
• (30:53) - Visualizing Brian's project's revenue vs time
• (34:05) - Audience building vs Saas building
• (41:56) - How excited is Brian about each project?
• (58:14) - How do you quantify the time and revenue?

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Links mentioned in this episode

• Instrumental Components - Brian's new product
• Clarity Flow - Brian's SaaS product
• Transistor.fm - Justin's company
• Builder Methods
• Instrumental Components
• Audience Ops
• Justin’s “Bob Ross” strategy diagram
• Marketing for Devs
• Curated
• Mailbrew
• A Book Apart
• Web framework popularity
• Hitenism
• Aaron Francis Newsletter
• Tangle
• Product market fit collapse
• Why Justin pivoted businesses in 2018

Brian's walking through the new website and idea he's launching and getting Justin's feedback on what he thinks will work and what could use refining, the struggle of creating video content in 2025, keeping course content fresh, whether another podcast is the best use of time, and whether targeting junior or professional software developers is the best route to go.

Timestamps:

• (00:00) - What broke the internet?
• (02:00) - Sports is heartache
• (05:49) - The trouble with hosting video costs
• (24:57) - What is Brian launching?
• (35:13) - The struggle of creating video content
• (37:48) - How are people finding the videos on YouTube?
• (47:19) - What do we think about the revenue opportunities for Brian's idea?
• (51:49) - Keeping a course and content fresh in 2025
• (59:38) - Should Brian start another podcast?
• (01:04:21) - Should I target junior or professional software developers with AI training?
• (01:22:20) - Live shoutouts

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Links mentioned in this episode

• Instrumental Components - Brian's new product
• Clarity Flow - Brian's SaaS product
• Transistor.fm - Justin's company
• Amazon S3
• Mux
• HTTP Live Streaming
• Delivering 15TB of 4K video with Cloudflare R2 for $2.18
• How About Tomorrow?
• Cloudflare Stream
• FFmpeg
• How Vibe Coding Goes PRO
• buildermethods.com
• Descript
• ScreenFlow
• Telestream Blog
• Stephen Robles
• Mostly Technical
• CRUSH Your Backlog With Background Agents in Cursor
• No, AI Won’t Turn Everyone Into App Developers